Cross breeding

[Ceratogyrus]

Tomorrow, when I pretend to work, I will go look for a few links and reply to the above post.

 

[Martin Oosthuysen]

Well enjoy, someone else might have more insight. As for me, please just send me the info on the South African ones. I am really interested in that, since I don't believe in wrongful buying or selling of any type of pet. Hope to hear soon.

 

[Ceratogyrus]

Some quick searching brought the thread up on the authority on African genera -Richard Gallon. This should give you a good idea of the mess that is Hysterocrates.

http://www.the-t-store.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=3781

And just chatted to Stefan Phalagorn, the top guy on Asian Theraphosids.
Here is his message to me:
Ah ok. Well, the species we have in the hobby known as C. "huahini" doesn't fit the C. huahini holotype. (which is unofficially synonymous with C. dyscolus). The the species we have in the hobby known as C. "huahini" = an unidentified Chilobrachys sp. from Thailand. The very same unidentified species was also sold as C. andersoni, C. sp. burmensis, C. bicolor, etc.

Now imagine if no one knows what exactly we have, how do you know you are breeding the correct male and female together?

Will get a few more threads tonight/tomorrow.

Edit: read the last post on this thread: http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/sho...hercules-or-crassipes&highlight=Hysterocrates

 

[novakdesigns]

Oh my, what a heated debate

 

[Ceratogyrus]

Oh my, what a heated debate

Heated? I've seen a lot worse than this.

 

[Ceratogyrus]

Again, I was referring the fact you pointed out about h.gigas and avics in south Africa. If this is a definite thing I will see a case study done by the experts saying these things to confirm them, why would I have to worry about health of the T since I won't be breeding a hybrid if its a confirmed hybrid ? Why freeze it ? Did it ask to be a hybrid ? So I know I won't breed it, so no risk added from me. May I just say, I have to take your word but everything I say I must prove ? Or so it seems. This is my true last post, hope you all continue this and take the best from it. Just use common sense when reading the reply below, and then reply accordingly. Oh please pm me the case study on the tarantulas h.gigas,avics and huahini that show the ones in the South African market aren't the true specimens. Other than that, I will go this weekend get the links and post them here. In future I won't have time to post much just photos, take care.



Okay I have been looking at different websites etc, and decided to reply this way.

1.
Hybrids are not always infertile.
2.
Hybrids happen nature as well as in the hobby
3. Hybrids are not right when
- its not in the wild, because those happen as necessity not personal status gain.
4. Is there proof of negative outcomes of hybrids in the hobby like molting problems, defects etc ?
- only discussions and personal experiences
- who would actually honestly admit to a hybrid sack failure ? No one, since its already frowned upon.
5. Has there been any documents showing its not with negative results ? No, which is weird you would brag with success.

Conclusion
- hybrids are okay in nature not the hobby, we just want a bigger better looking ones,nature a better surviving one.

Unfortunately Richard Gallon is still working on East African spiders (Including Hysterocrates), so no current papers on this. The best is to take the info on that link, add 8 years of mixed unknown imports to it and you get an even bigger mess. As for Avics, I heard some VERY BRAVE soul was working on Avics. Good luck to them.
Martin: "why would I have to worry about health of the T since I won't be breeding a hybrid if its a confirmed hybrid ?" Well if it's already a hybrid and it's healthy, there goes your theory that they have these issues.
Martin: "May I just say, I have to take your word but everything I say I must prove ?" I have given more than enough proof that current hybrids are flourishing, even you have confirmed my theory that possible hybrids that you own are healthy. Add to the healthy hybrids I have, and still nothing concrete from your side.
Seen as you are not posting here, and I get the feeling that nothing I would have said or proved would have changed your mind anyway, I will continue the links for the rest of the forum for interest sake...if everyone would like me to of course?

 

[Martin Oosthuysen]

You have proven nothing, but posted what someone said years ago ??? Lol have they posted anything else ? Somewhere there must be something if it was so big ? Like you said, don't believe everything you read right ? As for concrete, what I've seen classifies the same as what I've said, which why I feel under your own words documented reports/facts would be better. Now post as much as you like, please check the dates while posting. I can't say something to be relevant if not at least recently mentioned. A lot of scientific discoveries change daily, so no way I'd stick with things just stated in a forum of 8 years ago ??? Now please have fun, say what you wish but I don't get swayed easily since I've weighed up with your own measurement documentation/evidence not internet chatter. Again don't believe all you read right ? Bye

 

[Ceratogyrus]

Maybe one day when you have been around for a while and know who Richard Gallon and Stefan Phalagorn are, you can come back to this thread and comment. These are not just random people commenting, these are the top guys in their fields.
Like I said, I could see from the start that you were not going to change your mind, no matter what I said.
So I will continue for the rest.

How is this for the different 'vagans'.
Who knows if these are all proper vagans forms or actual different species? Makes looking at your vagans very interesting.


Photo courtesy of Stuart Longhorn

 

[novakdesigns]

Heated? I've seen a lot worse than this.

Lol im so glad all my posts and questions are boring. Wouldnt want to start a war on here

 

[Martin Oosthuysen]

As for those two people mentioned, I will get in contact with them. You have stated Richard Gallon is still in process, my issue was updated info on the claims. I will surely speak to them, also get in touch with local people as well. All I expect when you state its a fact, make sure its current. Since they are leaders in their fields, from what I've seen they would understand that concept.

 

[Ceratogyrus]

No need to contact them, I already have. As I said, you were never going to believe me anyway, so here is info for everyone else on here:
Emailed Richard Gallon yesterday regarding this. My mail is first, followed by his:
Hi Richard


Having a discussion regarding the mess up with current Hysterocrates species in SA.

I have quoted your old post on the t store, but the guy I am discussing with says that the info is outdated. http://www.the-t-store.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=3781

Anything new regarding what you wrote in there?

Trying to explain that what we have in the hobby probably isn't H.gigas.


Thanks

Ruan

Reply from Richard:
Hi Ruan,

The situation in captivity hasn't changed really. I still haven't seen any real Hysterocrates hercules in captivity. Since writing that post I've studied a much wider range of Hysterocrates species and in fact have a paper ready to submit soon (quite when it'll be published is another thing) covering a few different Hysterocrates. Sadly it doesn't really address the captive species, but that will come at some point...
Cheers,

Richard

 

[Ceratogyrus]

Lol im so glad all my posts and questions are boring. Wouldnt want to start a war on here

This is not a war. Interesting questions bring up interesting discussions.
Hopefully people can take something out of this conversation...

 

[Martin Oosthuysen]

Okay he did state h.Hercules, which I totally agree upon. I will still contact him regarding h gigas and to arrange a molt sample to be sent to him at some stage, like he said h.Hercules and we all know that's a huge myth in the hobby stating you have one.

 

[Martin Oosthuysen]

I will also speak and try to arrange a future molt for the Asian species expert, as well as for others to examine. If its an issue, take the bull by the horns. Since action speaks louder than words, or maybe I'm just like that.

 

[Ceratogyrus]

Interesting post regarding the B.baumgarteni.
These are considered natural hybrids by Rick West as per post #4 on the thread.
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?8409-Brachypelma-Baumgarteni-Mexican-Orange-Beauty

But reading on another thread, A.Smith says that it is not a hybrid, but a natural occuring species. Wonder if these did not hybridize years ago and are now a current species?

Actually wonder how many other species within Genera (like Poecilotheria possibly) are also natural hybrids after centuries of interbreeding. From what I have heard, DNA might be able to help to see where the species originate from and relate to each other, which would probably draw a clearer picture of how they all fit in originally.

 

[Martin Oosthuysen]

In the end, you might not have a h.Hercules or gigas but your hysterocrates could be another member of the genus that you didn't know you have. Worst case a hybrid.

 

[Martin Oosthuysen]

See exactly as I said, natural hybrids. So that's why I came to the conclusion that natural hybrids do occur, but that's nature taking its course no human intervention. Did he state if he has found why the hybrids occurred ? Maybe factors within the location found ? Like food,habitat or some other factor ?
Basically forced by some external factor, or is it an evolutionary drive ? Sorry I am inquisitive. Also what has he discovered since that post ? I wish people would post updates, I know its a lot to ask but its a must. Has his view changed since then ? Has he found evidence to the contrary ? Like I said with Richard Gallon or the others, I would just like to know his current views.

 

[Martin Oosthuysen]

I will for sure support people like Richard, I could have a real h.gigas or that other hysterocrates we thought wasn't in the hobby. Both ways a win/win. If hybrid, off my list of my collection.

 

[Ceratogyrus]

For everyone else, another post regarding Hysterocrates: http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?175618-H.sp.-quot-gigas-quot-ID&highlight=H.gigas

 

[Ceratogyrus]

One more interesting link for everyone: http://lovetarantulas.com/

Andrew Smith has done some good work on Brachypelma. You need to pay for the majority of the downloads, but they are well worth it. I have a few of the downloads and they are great.

I will stop posting on this thread now as no one seems too interested.

For anyone interested on finding stefan Phalagorn to let him see pics of your spiders, like his facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/Theraphosids.of.Southeast.Asia and ask him on there maybe.