New hybrid to avoid

[MassExodus]

Thistles, never the twain shall meet? Never? How bout wandering spiders in bananas? In England..and please dont say thats not natural. WE are natural, and whatever effect we have on nature..is natural. Im not trolling either, I just tend to question everything.. And to be honest you still haven't given any decent reason why two spiders of the same genus shouldnt be bred. Other than the usual theory that its going to screw up our current filing system. You say race is like "subspecies"..call it what you want, but we're all human, and these are all tarantulas. Classifying them into categories is for description, its a human thing. And oh how we dont like questioning the status quo! Who's to say tarantulas in the same genus arent meant to breed? You? You seem sharp Thistles, but I need more than an opinion. I really wonder how many of these "pure" species we're so proud of are the result of crossbreeding. Not to mention wild cross breeding. I would still like to see a long range project, years of selective cross breeding, documented, with a new species at the end. Call me a bad person, but I'd love to see it. I'm not talking about some dude letting his ornata have a go at his metallica. I'm talking about years of breeding, with the goal of a new species in mind. Yes, yes, the casual asshats throwing crossbreeds into the hobby without saying anything are hurting the hobby. I agree, when someone buys a vagans, they should get a vagans. That doesn't rule out crossbreeding completely, not in my mind.

 

[Dave Jay]

Should I bring up "Hybrid Vigour"?
Meh he he he heh!!! (Evil laugh)
Not so long ago, less than 100 years , Heros severus was discovered and collected for the aquarium hobby. The original wild caught severums were touchy, but enough survived and bred to establish captive bred severums in the hobby. These captive bred fish thrived and bred well with few of the problems encountered with wild caught fish. Years later it was established that two different species had been collected originally, and the severums in the hobby were sufficiently different enough to both parent species to not qualify for either species name. They were their own species and bred true 100% of the time, a factor that does define a species.
Inadvertently a tough species of Severum was "born".

More popcorn anyone?

 

[Thistles]

Thistles, never the twain shall meet? Never? How bout wandering spiders in bananas? In England..and please dont say thats not natural. WE are natural, and whatever effect we have on nature..is natural.

Ok, then why have the word "natural" at all? What you're doing now is equivocating about that particular word. When someone says, "natural or artificial" do you correct them and say, "um, excuse me, but that man-made thing is natural too because humans are natural..." You know exactly what I meant, and I hope you recognize how disingenuous that kind of word game is. Humans arose through natural processes, created the word "natural," and defined themselves apart from it.

Without human intervention, these two species of spider would not meet. Phoneutria would not end up in the UK. Styrofoam would not exist. As I will address later, that isn't to say that the "unnatural" is bad, but don't pretend that words mean something other than what they mean. The hybrids in question are unnatural.

Im not trolling either, I just tend to question everything.. And to be honest you still haven't given any decent reason why two spiders of the same genus shouldnt be bred.

Questioning everything is good. Automatically doing away with things just because they're the accepted status quo is not. A knee-jerk rejection to be edgy or different or just out of habit is as bad as following blindly; maybe worse, because you forfeit the benefit of learning from others' mistakes. Society is great at providing us with tested ideas. Most are correct, but because they're so commonplace we only notice the exceptions. Omg, the earth actually isn't flat!

I'll get to the other part later.

Other than the usual theory that its going to screw up our current filing system. You say race is like "subspecies"..call it what you want, but we're all human, and these are all tarantulas. Classifying them into categories is for description, its a human thing.

Yeah, it is a human thing. There are different kinds of categories, too. You'll love some of the names: natural and artificial. This means that some categories are imposed and others are clear enough and exist just to be discovered. It's obvious that x is not y, and there are clear reasons why not. There's a natural category. The problem is where you pick your level of analysis. At the atomic level, we're all made of the same stuff. Why have categories at all? Oh, right, because it's necessary to survive. What you've (and by "you" I mostly mean Shampain here, but you seem to agree with him) been doing is accepting some of the classifications and throwing the others out without any justification.

And oh how we dont like questioning the status quo! Who's to say tarantulas in the same genus arent meant to breed? You? You seem sharp Thistles, but I need more than an opinion.

And now we need an ethics lesson. Without a common ethical framework, that's all ethics is. That's why I was questioning your use of the word "should." How do you get from "possible" to "desirable." How do I get from "this is how it is in nature" to "this is how it should be in captivity." Your ethical framework. I tend toward utilitarianism, so I appeal to the consequences of an action. You're probably more deontological. Without agreeing on where morality comes from, you wouldn't be able to give me more than an opinion about why murder is wrong.

I really wonder how many of these "pure" species we're so proud of are the result of crossbreeding. Not to mention wild cross breeding. I would still like to see a long range project, years of selective cross breeding, documented, with a new species at the end. Call me a bad person, but I'd love to see it. I'm not talking about some dude letting his ornata have a go at his metallica. I'm talking about years of breeding, with the goal of a new species in mind. Yes, yes, the casual asshats throwing crossbreeds into the hobby without saying anything are hurting the hobby. I agree, when someone buys a vagans, they should get a vagans. That doesn't rule out crossbreeding completely, not in my mind.

Captive crossbreeding? Not many, and most are known, like vagans and albopilosum. Wild crossbreeding? Probably Brachypelma baumgarteni. Maybe a few more, but by this point they're already speciated. What you're talking about with creating a new species is not unusual, and wouldn't require hybridization to accomplish. Where do you think new species come from in the first place? When we collect from the wild, if we don't inject new wild stock, we have created an isolated population that will over time deviate from the wild population. Given enough time, you get speciation.

I'll get back to this when I have time, but I've gotta go to class now and this weekend is crazy.

 

[Whitelightning777]

The classic definition of a subspecies (race) versus a true species is that a true species can't interbreed with another and produce fertile offspring whereas different races of one species can do so.

In the past, hybridization was actually used as a test to see if one specimen was in fact the same species as another.

I would argue that in the case of many tarantulas, they are races not true species. The genus level as defined today is probably the actual species in the classical sense of the word.

Of course, in all these cases, yes even us, the races should be preserved. In terms of humans, redheads are most at risk of vanishing, a fate to horrifying to contemplate.

Of course, the Chinese will probably take over the world in 30 years anyway...

... especially if you think that racial purity and a higher IQ are an advantage. By that measure, we're screwed.

Hopefully Trump can slow down the decline for another decade or so and get that wall up. I voted for him once and will do so again and that's about as political as I'll get, at least in this forum.

The question remains. Are the hybrids fertile with each other? That's the test.

 

[Whitelightning777]

Should I bring up "Hybrid Vigour"?
Meh he he he heh!!! (Evil laugh)
Not so long ago, less than 100 years , Heros severus was discovered and collected for the aquarium hobby. The original wild caught severums were touchy, but enough survived and bred to establish captive bred severums in the hobby. These captive bred fish thrived and bred well with few of the problems encountered with wild caught fish. Years later it was established that two different species had been collected originally, and the severums in the hobby were sufficiently different enough to both parent species to not qualify for either species name. They were their own species and bred true 100% of the time, a factor that does define a species.
Inadvertently a tough species of Severum was "born".

More popcorn anyone?

Hybrid vigor only occurs in the F1 generation. From then on, the usual problems arise.

 

[Arachnoclown]

lol

That's crazy...the first one cracked me up!!! It was just trying to say daddy and he smashed it with a book!!!!

 

[Dustin Amack]

Good conversation and one that I have seen multiple times. Great points always come up (on both sides). Although these two species discussed in this pairing are high on my favorites list, and it would be kinda cool to see a hybrid, I am against the idea. I am coming from a bit of a different world view regarding creation.

 

[MassExodus]

Ok, then why have the word "natural" at all? What you're doing now is equivocating about that particular word. When someone says, "natural or artificial" do you correct them and say, "um, excuse me, but that man-made thing is natural too because humans are natural..." You know exactly what I meant, and I hope you recognize how disingenuous that kind of word game is. Humans arose through natural processes, created the word "natural," and defined themselves apart from it.

Without human intervention, these two species of spider would not meet. Phoneutria would not end up in the UK. Styrofoam would not exist. As I will address later, that isn't to say that the "unnatural" is bad, but don't pretend that words mean something other than what they mean. The hybrids in question are unnatural.
Questioning everything is good. Automatically doing away with things just because they're the accepted status quo is not. A knee-jerk rejection to be edgy or different or just out of habit is as bad as following blindly; maybe worse, because you forfeit the benefit of learning from others' mistakes. Society is great at providing us with tested ideas. Most are correct, but because they're so commonplace we only notice the exceptions. Omg, the earth actually isn't flat!

I'll get to the other part later.

Yeah, it is a human thing. There are different kinds of categories, too. You'll love some of the names: natural and artificial. This means that some categories are imposed and others are clear enough and exist just to be discovered. It's obvious that x is not y, and there are clear reasons why not. There's a natural category. The problem is where you pick your level of analysis. At the atomic level, we're all made of the same stuff. Why have categories at all? Oh, right, because it's necessary to survive. What you've (and by "you" I mostly mean Shampain here, but you seem to agree with him) been doing is accepting some of the classifications and throwing the others out without any justification.

And now we need an ethics lesson. Without a common ethical framework, that's all ethics is. That's why I was questioning your use of the word "should." How do you get from "possible" to "desirable." How do I get from "this is how it is in nature" to "this is how it should be in captivity." Your ethical framework. I tend toward utilitarianism, so I appeal to the consequences of an action. You're probably more deontological. Without agreeing on where morality comes from, you wouldn't be able to give me more than an opinion about why murder is wrong.

Captive crossbreeding? Not many, and most are known, like vagans and albopilosum. Wild crossbreeding? Probably Brachypelma baumgarteni. Maybe a few more, but by this point they're already speciated. What you're talking about with creating a new species is not unusual, and wouldn't require hybridization to accomplish. Where do you think new species come from in the first place? When we collect from the wild, if we don't inject new wild stock, we have created an isolated population that will over time deviate from the wild population. Given enough time, you get speciation.

I'll get back to this when I have time, but I've gotta go to class now and this weekend is crazy.

Did I not say she was sharp? One thing, my reactions are not knee jerk, and Im not trying to be edgy. Im too old for that..Its my nature to question, especially when ideas are crammed down my throat by a disapproving horde(not y'all)..Ive always been that way. So anyway, thanks for explaining what "hobby form" means, I never realized it was caused by speciation. (Never heard of it, but it makes sense.)
But speciation would be different than hybridization, right? Its slight changes caused by isolation. We're doing that by captive breeding, every time we breed two captive bred spiders. So we're changing all of them anyway? So..why not make a species? And Im not twisting words to suit my argument, I don't think. I think new species come from wild crossbreeding, in fact Im fairly certain they do..where else? Baumgarteni and a few others are unique from wild crossbreeding? I think not..thats kind of strange to think that. I have two species in my area, maybe three, all Aphonopelma. Moderatum coexist in the same habitat as anax. You think they dont mingle? You think all the anax and moderatum in my area are pure? Never mated? Have you seen male moderatum? They look very, very similar to anax.

 

[Arachnoclown]

I bet there's some weird species going on in the oceans...dolphins will do anything to anybody at anytime!!!!!!

 

[Thistles]

Did I not say she was sharp? One thing, my reactions are not knee jerk, and Im not trying to be edgy. Im too old for that..Its my nature to question, especially when ideas are crammed down my throat by a disapproving horde(not y'all)..Ive always been that way. So anyway, thanks for explaining what "hobby form" means, I never realized it was caused by speciation. (Never heard of it, but it makes sense.)
But speciation would be different than hybridization, right? Its slight changes caused by isolation. We're doing that by captive breeding, every time we breed two captive bred spiders. So we're changing all of them anyway? So..why not make a species? And Im not twisting words to suit my argument, I don't think. I think new species come from wild crossbreeding, in fact Im fairly certain they do..where else? Baumgarteni and a few others are unique from wild crossbreeding? I think not..thats kind of strange to think that. I have two species in my area, maybe three, all Aphonopelma. Moderatum coexist in the same habitat as anax. You think they dont mingle? You think all the anax and moderatum in my area are pure? Never mated? Have you seen male moderatum? They look very, very similar to anax.

Not that sharp, judging by the grade I just got on my organic chemistry exam or maybe that's just laziness...

I guess I need to clarify some. Yeah, speciation is not the same as hybridization. Speciation is just when a new species is formed (and as was alluded to earlier, that can be muddy; different people have different definitions of "species) regardless of how, and hybridization is the crossing of species. "Hobby form" can be from either hybridizing or isolation. Both can result in the change of the allele makeup in the population.

Here's the big difference: hybridization almost never increases variety. As I said in an earlier post, it usually makes 2 into 1, not 3. Baumgarteni is an unusual case. Look at an example without human interference and T-keeper emotions, like dolphins. There's a new species of dolphin called a clymene dolphin, which started as a hybrid between spinner and striped dolphins. This is very unusual, especially since most mammal hybrids are infertile (not the case for many other taxa, btw, which is why ability to breed is a crappy way of defining species), and it's not clear yet what the impact on the two parent species will be. The more common case is that of the spotted dolphin. They've been breeding with bottlenose dolphins (I think usually male bottlenoses rape female spotteds), and the offspring are infertile. This is causing the spotted population to drop. It takes a huge investment from a mother spotted to raise a calf, and if her calf is infertile she's just wasted a ton of energy NOT propagating her species. The result over time will be not two species becoming three, but the extinction of the spotted and all the hybrids, leaving only the bottlenose. This is more typical. (*I am not a dolphin expert. I hate the damned things. I may be wrong about this stuff, but I don't think I am.*)

Sooo a big difference is compatibility. The species that overlap and are still separate species aren't typically compatible. The offspring are infertile, or, in the case of your local Aphonopelma, their genitalia/emboli aren't compatible. That's a big way to ID different T species, btw. Look at their reproductive organs. No, your local Aphonopelma don't mix, because they can't. Species that are recently differentiated, like cam and irminia, are still compatible but have speciated due to isolation. If the populations were brought together again, the two separate species would cease to exist and you'd end up with one.

Just to reiterate, hybridization ALMOST NEVER is responsible for the creation of new species. It does the opposite and REDUCES the diversity. Separation is what drives speciation. Population A is split into 2, one group has a mutation that the other doesn't, and differences develop from there. Does that make more sense?

Edit: the word twisting was the word "natural." You're definitely equivocating there.

 

[Thistles]

I bet there's some weird species going on in the oceans...dolphins will do anything to anybody at anytime!!!!!!

Omg I was writing my response when you posted that. Featuring dolphins.

 

[Thistles]

Of course, the Chinese will probably take over the world in 30 years anyway...

... especially if you think that racial purity and a higher IQ are an advantage. By that measure, we're screwed.

...you realize that the average Asian IQ is 5 points higher than the average Caucasian IQ, right? Are you saying that because of that they'll take over? Or that it's bad that they do?

 

[MassExodus]

Not that sharp, judging by the grade I just got on my organic chemistry exam or maybe that's just laziness...

I guess I need to clarify some. Yeah, speciation is not the same as hybridization. Speciation is just when a new species is formed (and as was alluded to earlier, that can be muddy; different people have different definitions of "species) regardless of how, and hybridization is the crossing of species. "Hobby form" can be from either hybridizing or isolation. Both can result in the change of the allele makeup in the population.

Here's the big difference: hybridization almost never increases variety. As I said in an earlier post, it usually makes 2 into 1, not 3. Baumgarteni is an unusual case. Look at an example without human interference and T-keeper emotions, like dolphins. There's a new species of dolphin called a clymene dolphin, which started as a hybrid between spinner and striped dolphins. This is very unusual, especially since most mammal hybrids are infertile (not the case for many other taxa, btw, which is why ability to breed is a crappy way of defining species), and it's not clear yet what the impact on the two parent species will be. The more common case is that of the spotted dolphin. They've been breeding with bottlenose dolphins (I think usually male bottlenoses rape female spotteds), and the offspring are infertile. This is causing the spotted population to drop. It takes a huge investment from a mother spotted to raise a calf, and if her calf is infertile she's just wasted a ton of energy NOT propagating her species. The result over time will be not two species becoming three, but the extinction of the spotted and all the hybrids, leaving only the bottlenose. This is more typical. (*I am not a dolphin expert. I hate the damned things. I may be wrong about this stuff, but I don't think I am.*)

Sooo a big difference is compatibility. The species that overlap and are still separate species aren't typically compatible. The offspring are infertile, or, in the case of your local Aphonopelma, their genitalia/emboli aren't compatible. That's a big way to ID different T species, btw. Look at their reproductive organs. No, your local Aphonopelma don't mix, because they can't. Species that are recently differentiated, like cam and irminia, are still compatible but have speciated due to isolation. If the populations were brought together again, the two separate species would cease to exist and you'd end up with one.

Just to reiterate, hybridization ALMOST NEVER is responsible for the creation of new species. It does the opposite and REDUCES the diversity. Separation is what drives speciation. Population A is split into 2, one group has a mutation that the other doesn't, and differences develop from there. Does that make more sense?

Edit: the word twisting was the word "natural." You're definitely equivocating there.

Yep, makes sense. Its very dissapointing. However, it does mean I can capture moderatum from 2 counties away and put them in my field, where I have a herd of horses and a herd of anax..Muhahahaaaaa! The species does overlap, and I want moderatum in my area

 

[Thistles]

oh my god, you've found my spirit animal! That face says everything I feel, and the prickles are perfection.

 

[Arachnoclown]

Let's not forget about Napoleon Dynamite's favorite....

 

[Thistles]

More than anything, I want @VanessaS to come see what's going on in this thread. That is my dream.

 

[Thistles]

View attachment 29266

I just fed a chippie in my front yard. Well, "just" meaning this morning.

 

[Thistles]

My avatar approves. Reminds me of this artist: http://dappermouth.storenvy.com/collections/1549442-art-prints

I have a few of her shirts.

 

[Arachnoclown]

All this hybrid talk got me reading alot. I'm not for it at all but I'm curious about some of the natural occurring situations without the help of man.

Coywolf...

Grolar bear....this photo was taken in captivity but it happens in the wild.

And this new species found in Scotland.... @Shampain JK

 

[Thistles]

Yeah, coydogs happen, too. You can get them as pets, lol. Polar bears and grizzlies are arguably the same species, with polar bears in the process of differentiating. They're a new bear =) Isolation and a different environment has led to speciation.