baumgarteni and boehmei

[MassExodus]

Just wanted to revisit an old topic. I have a juvie male boehmei and I just ordered a juvie female.
Before breeding them (assuming she matures fast enough to do so) I once again read through some old threads and descriptions of the two species, because I want to be as sure as possible that neither is a hybrid, or the wrong species.
From everything I went over, the final truth is that there is no way to be absolutely sure. We don't have a described female baumgarteni for the all important spermathecae shot. Not described by taxonomy, anyway. Only veteran hobbyists opinions, which while they are certainly valid, are not fact.
The same applies to everyones opinions on coloration, carapace structure and color, tarsal "swooshes"...its all opinion.
I've read enough descriptions on regional variations in color, and seen it myself, to put very little stock in leg colors and carapace colors, within reason of course. Look at A geniculata and brockelhursti...last I heard, brockelhursti was debunked as a regional variation, by taxonomy, not opinion. There's a paper on it somewhere..very dry.
My point is, I did the best I could, and I still don't have anything to go by but looks..and ive already seen differences in many boehmei..reddish carapaces, like Austin's boehmei in his breeding thread, ivory (like my male) and ivory with faint dark patterns. How do you truly know? Breeders describe these wide coloration varieties in slings from the same sac..
I bred my two female anax on looks, with males gathered from the same area. How do I know if anax and hentzi haven't cross bred in my area ? How do I know my Lp doesn't have some Ld in it, on its grandfathers side?
Sorry for the wall of text. I'm just thinking out loud. Anyone have any thoughts on this?
I just find it interesting that we place such meaning on purity, when in fact, unless you're a trained taxonomist, you don't know. Not for sure. And sometimes even THEY don't know.
For what it's worth, I think a baumgarteni looks like a boehmei/smithi crossed paths in the wild. A taxonomist did dna testing and refuted that. Rick West said dna testing is not a reliable tool in the Brachypelma genus So..wtf, over?
Thoughts?

 

[Johnnyp1987]

Ive read the same about them being boehmei/smithi hybrids, and i can see why (similar appearence to boehmei with the smithi carapace) also i read that they were considered sterile. However there was then a successfull captive breeding with over 450 eggs. I suppose there is a possibility that they are natural hybrids, or they could be a genuine seperate species, maybe we will never know.

 

[Metalman2004]

I'm a newb here so take my thoughts with a grain of salt, but I have contemplated the definition of species in Ts and other animals for that matter quite a bit. It seems the more that scientists try to put things in a simple box and say something is this species or that species, the more apparent it becomes that things are not black and white but are all sorts if grey.

If you look up the definition of species you'll see that it is basically a group that can interbreed. Yet science has broken organisms into seperate species that can still interbreed. Aint that confusing....

I've read a few comments about breeders needing to make sure that their Ts are pure so they don't accidentally create some mutant hybrids without knowing it. I do agree that everything should be documented for science, but genetic diversity is what fuels evolution and the ability to survive.

MassExodus you may never know if you have a hybrid ir not but in my opinion it may not really matter that much (I am sure some will disagree). Good luck with the breeding!

 

[Tomoran]

The baumgarteni/boehmei hybrid situation confounds me a bit as well. I have a female of what I though was a B. boehmei that I bought a few years back as a young adult. After reading up on the possibly hybridization of these and baumgarteni and comparing photos, I realized that there was a good chance that mine was one of the hybrids. I sent several photos of mine to someone who had raised both species and supposedly knew what to look for, and he confirmed it. From what I gathered from speaking to a couple folks and researching old forum threads, someone knowingly bred the two species together several years ago (2009/2010 or so?), and released the slings into the pet trade. Mine was very likely one of those slings. As a result, I won't be attempting to breed this one, as I don't want to take the chance. In my instance, there is enough of a doubt to warrant holding off.

Personally, if you've got juveniles, I really wouldn't worry too much about it. I suppose that there is a possibility that some of those hybrids have been bred and sold throughout the hobby, but like you said, you'll never know. I'd say you could breed with a clear conscience.