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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tortoise Tom" data-source="post: 151138" data-attributes="member: 27883">You are missing my point. Your argument is a strong one and I don't disagree, but this is how you see this issue. Other people see it differently and make a different case. Some people believe use birth control is also a form of abortion and defying God's will. IUDs wipe out developing cells after conception. How is that not also abortion, but you advocate for it? Without that IUD, or condom, or pill, those cells would have, or could have become a living person. You've just chosen an earlier stage to conveniently destroy that life. You say its okay if we do it early enough. Other people think anytime in the first week is okay. Others think first trimester is hunky dory. Everyone draws this line somewhere different.My point is this: No one should be trying to control the lives of others through the use of force. Government and laws = use of force. If you don't follow what they write down on paper, men with guns come to either arrest or shoot you. Force. Your argument, valid or not, agreeable or not, is the same as their argument that children are dying, so you and I need to give up rights to our chosen means of self defense. I find perverse amusement in the fact that both sides accuse the other of not caring about the lives of children and murdering babies. These arguments are based on opinions. Personal viewpoints. You and I are in agreement about 2A. We are in agreement about a religious ideology that says they must convert or kill us and it is fine to lie, deceive and cheat to accomplish either goal. We are in agreement about what abortion is and isn't, I think. Where I think we disagree, is in what to do about it.With our guns, there is a clear and well explained standard. We are born with these rights and our BoR and Constitution merely enumerate and protect those rights. We individual citizens are supposed to be as well armed as the individual soldier. That is what the framers said, that is what the framers intended, and that is what they wrote down and ratified. Their positions are clearly defined and explained in numerous historical references, including the Federalist Papers. If you look at what was going down at the time, it is obvious why they would feel that way. Human nature has not changed with the times. Government still wishes to wrest power away from the individual, and our system of government is supposed to prevent that. It is currently failing.There isn't any such talk from the founders about abortion rights. Some say it fails under the general heading of personal freedom. Some say that all human life at all stages fall under these protections. The issue is, and always will be, when is it a human life, and what is okay to do or not do, prior to that point. You are okay with IUDs. Some Catholics are not okay with any form of BC. Some of these whackos are saying its fine to kill the baby after a successful birth. I know a man who upon seeing some of these insolent little criminal teenagers quips that abortion should be legal up until age 18. In some of these cases, I don't disagree with him, so I suppose I'm a bit of a whacko too. The issue is that each of us will see this differently and draw a line in a different place. The issue is: What do we do about all these differences of opinion about this issue? I see two choices. 1. We all force everyone else to live by how we see it. 2. We all live our own lives, and let others live their own lives how they see fit. I don't think a consensus will ever be reached on this issue. A majority will be able to meet somewhere in the middle, but the extremes on both sides will always hold their positions.</blockquote>

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