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The threat to the First Amendment.
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<blockquote data-quote="Tortoise Tom" data-source="post: 149566" data-attributes="member: 27883"><p>Your conclusion may be correct, but I still think its a discussion worth having and thank you for your input. Even if we don't change our own points of view, there is benefit to understanding where the other is coming from, and I think there is insight to be gained by anyone reading our conversation.</p><p></p><p></p><p> My point was not to debate the validity of speeding tickets. I really have no argument there. The point of the story was to illustrate the obedience to government demonstrated by some Europeans, in stark contrast to the typical American defiance toward the same.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Here we disagree. Tell this to the disarmed people of Venezuela right now.</p><p></p><p>Several points to demonstrate why I think you are wrong on this point:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">There are 350 million Americans, and more privately owned guns than that. There are only around 1 million soldiers in ALL of our armed forces. We would slaughter them. There is a quote from a Japanese Admiral given shortly after then end of WWII. He was asked why the Japs didn't invade the West coast of the United States after Pearl Harbor. Our Navy was decimated and our left coast was sitting there mostly defenseless against the might of the Japanese armada. His answer: "You cannot invade the United States, there would be a rifle behind every blade of grass." This quote is largely disputed, and I don't think we will ever know who said it or if it was even said, but it is and was true in any case.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The American military is made up of Americans. Our sons and daughters. Neighbors and friends. Some percentage of them will "just follow orders". Some percentage of them will fight on our side, with their military machines and weaponry. What are these percentages? No one really knows, but we debate it and think about it often. My buddy flies Blackhawks for the Army. I've been assured that I am not the target he will be shooting at should there ever be another Civil War. Likewise with my friends and family in law enforcement.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The framers of our Constitution that I mentioned previously had the wisdom to make it completely forbidden in any and every way to use the American military against Americans. The first soldier to fire on an American citizen is in violation of the law and has committed an act of treason punishable by death. Will they do it anyway? Yes. Some of them probably will. But not all of them. It is pure fantasy and nothing but speculation to try and debate how this will go.</li> </ul><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>In reading this paragraph from you, it appears my previous words didn't reach you. To summarize: Bad people do bad things. Always have always will. When our government disarms good guys, and creates "Gun Free Zones" in our schools, they create an environment where madmen seeking fame and notoriety can operate freely and safely while committing these atrocities. Put another way, do you know why there are no mass shootings at police stations? Armed resistance makes it difficult for the deranged to ply their trade. Every time one of these guys shows up and is greeted unexpectedly, by an armed good guy, the mass murdering ends immediately. What you need to understand is that the mass media, in your country too, is pushing an agenda. They don't publicize when an armed good guy stops a murderous lunatic. Often only the lunatic dies, so there is no sensational story about how many innocents were murdered to make people afraid of guns and support their cause of disarming America.</p><p></p><p>My daughter attends a private school. There are well trained armed men keeping an eye on things in and around the school. If one of these deranged lunatics shows up at her school to make a name for himself and get famous, he will promptly be shot in the face, before setting foot on school grounds, and there will only be one death on that day. His.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I can't comment on crime and drugs in your part of the world. I don't think I know enough to do so, but in America, the "War on Drugs" is an embarrassing, tragic, atrocious, disgusting, failure in every way. You can literally buy illegal drugs here in any city with a minimum of effort. There is ZERO point in making drugs illegal and the cost for trying in money, human suffering and lives lost is staggering. Our "leaders" should have learned this lesson with prohibition in the 1920s. You cannot tell adult humans what they can and can't do when it comes to mind altering substances. Drugs and alcohol have been a part of human society since there has been human society. There is no stopping it. There is only the count of lives destroyed by trying to stop it.</p><p></p><p>My opinion, which will be disagreed with by many, is that we should legalize all drugs, tax them, and use the tax money for anti-drug education, rehab, and retribution for the innocent lives destroyed by drug use. Make it legal and you'll take away most of the violence and crime that is associated with it. Some people are weak. This will never change. But if they made heroin legal tomorrow in your country, would you walk on down to the store and buy some to shoot up? I wouldn't. I don't do drugs now and I wouldn't do them if they were legal. I enjoy an occasional beer, but I don't get drunk, I don't drive after the occasional beer. People who do drugs are going to do them one way or the other, legal or not. People who don't do drugs aren't going to suddenly start if it was made legal. Rather than fight this aspect of human nature, a fight that cannot be won, I propose we work to understand it, and mitigate the damage as much as possible.</p><p></p><p>Further, there is no birthright do do drugs and self harm. There IS an assumed birthright for gun ownership and self-defense. This makes the comparison of drug laws and guns laws entirely moot, regardless of where anyone sides on either.</p><p></p><p></p><p>In closing, you asked for an education. No way to do that here, but I can give tidbits that help to explain why we do what we do over here. You are being lied to by the media. Both our media and your own. Here is a tiny little bit of the truth to whet your appetite for more. I can't force anyone to see things my way, but I can at least offer a little bit of fact even if it is drowned out by a sea of media lies. Please take a few minutes to watch this one and then I'd love to hear your opinion on it:</p><p></p><p>[MEDIA=youtube]pELwCqz2JfE[/MEDIA]</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tortoise Tom, post: 149566, member: 27883"] Your conclusion may be correct, but I still think its a discussion worth having and thank you for your input. Even if we don't change our own points of view, there is benefit to understanding where the other is coming from, and I think there is insight to be gained by anyone reading our conversation. My point was not to debate the validity of speeding tickets. I really have no argument there. The point of the story was to illustrate the obedience to government demonstrated by some Europeans, in stark contrast to the typical American defiance toward the same. Here we disagree. Tell this to the disarmed people of Venezuela right now. Several points to demonstrate why I think you are wrong on this point: [LIST] [*]There are 350 million Americans, and more privately owned guns than that. There are only around 1 million soldiers in ALL of our armed forces. We would slaughter them. There is a quote from a Japanese Admiral given shortly after then end of WWII. He was asked why the Japs didn't invade the West coast of the United States after Pearl Harbor. Our Navy was decimated and our left coast was sitting there mostly defenseless against the might of the Japanese armada. His answer: "You cannot invade the United States, there would be a rifle behind every blade of grass." This quote is largely disputed, and I don't think we will ever know who said it or if it was even said, but it is and was true in any case. [*]The American military is made up of Americans. Our sons and daughters. Neighbors and friends. Some percentage of them will "just follow orders". Some percentage of them will fight on our side, with their military machines and weaponry. What are these percentages? No one really knows, but we debate it and think about it often. My buddy flies Blackhawks for the Army. I've been assured that I am not the target he will be shooting at should there ever be another Civil War. Likewise with my friends and family in law enforcement. [*]The framers of our Constitution that I mentioned previously had the wisdom to make it completely forbidden in any and every way to use the American military against Americans. The first soldier to fire on an American citizen is in violation of the law and has committed an act of treason punishable by death. Will they do it anyway? Yes. Some of them probably will. But not all of them. It is pure fantasy and nothing but speculation to try and debate how this will go. [/LIST] In reading this paragraph from you, it appears my previous words didn't reach you. To summarize: Bad people do bad things. Always have always will. When our government disarms good guys, and creates "Gun Free Zones" in our schools, they create an environment where madmen seeking fame and notoriety can operate freely and safely while committing these atrocities. Put another way, do you know why there are no mass shootings at police stations? Armed resistance makes it difficult for the deranged to ply their trade. Every time one of these guys shows up and is greeted unexpectedly, by an armed good guy, the mass murdering ends immediately. What you need to understand is that the mass media, in your country too, is pushing an agenda. They don't publicize when an armed good guy stops a murderous lunatic. Often only the lunatic dies, so there is no sensational story about how many innocents were murdered to make people afraid of guns and support their cause of disarming America. My daughter attends a private school. There are well trained armed men keeping an eye on things in and around the school. If one of these deranged lunatics shows up at her school to make a name for himself and get famous, he will promptly be shot in the face, before setting foot on school grounds, and there will only be one death on that day. His. I can't comment on crime and drugs in your part of the world. I don't think I know enough to do so, but in America, the "War on Drugs" is an embarrassing, tragic, atrocious, disgusting, failure in every way. You can literally buy illegal drugs here in any city with a minimum of effort. There is ZERO point in making drugs illegal and the cost for trying in money, human suffering and lives lost is staggering. Our "leaders" should have learned this lesson with prohibition in the 1920s. You cannot tell adult humans what they can and can't do when it comes to mind altering substances. Drugs and alcohol have been a part of human society since there has been human society. There is no stopping it. There is only the count of lives destroyed by trying to stop it. My opinion, which will be disagreed with by many, is that we should legalize all drugs, tax them, and use the tax money for anti-drug education, rehab, and retribution for the innocent lives destroyed by drug use. Make it legal and you'll take away most of the violence and crime that is associated with it. Some people are weak. This will never change. But if they made heroin legal tomorrow in your country, would you walk on down to the store and buy some to shoot up? I wouldn't. I don't do drugs now and I wouldn't do them if they were legal. I enjoy an occasional beer, but I don't get drunk, I don't drive after the occasional beer. People who do drugs are going to do them one way or the other, legal or not. People who don't do drugs aren't going to suddenly start if it was made legal. Rather than fight this aspect of human nature, a fight that cannot be won, I propose we work to understand it, and mitigate the damage as much as possible. Further, there is no birthright do do drugs and self harm. There IS an assumed birthright for gun ownership and self-defense. This makes the comparison of drug laws and guns laws entirely moot, regardless of where anyone sides on either. In closing, you asked for an education. No way to do that here, but I can give tidbits that help to explain why we do what we do over here. You are being lied to by the media. Both our media and your own. Here is a tiny little bit of the truth to whet your appetite for more. I can't force anyone to see things my way, but I can at least offer a little bit of fact even if it is drowned out by a sea of media lies. Please take a few minutes to watch this one and then I'd love to hear your opinion on it: [MEDIA=youtube]pELwCqz2JfE[/MEDIA] [/QUOTE]
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