Hey, Pokie keepers

[Thistles]

http://usark.org/library/esa-2018-sri-lankan-tarantulas/

 

[Metalman2004]

Very sad indeed....

 

[Tortoise Tom]

Bummer. That's not going to help those species.

 

[Arachnoclown]

Well their not endangered in my house....

 

[Thistles]

Beginning to regret selling all my big ornatas.

 

[Whitelightning777]

So the only thing I'm wondering is if you physically went to the seller, did 100% of the sale within state lines and physically drove back to your house, world that be ok?

How do you go to federal court and try to get an injunction? Frankly, any T that had spent 100% of its life within the USA born here in captivity should really be exempt.

Has anyone called their congressman? Generally speaking, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Even just getting a few thousand polite emails or letters in the mail can work.

Of course, be civil and articulate. Do show how beautiful and happy your tarantulas are especially since they aren't taking what you already have.

The other thing is that they have openly started that none of our pokies meet the standards for reintroduction because they're all hybrids...which logically means that there's no reason to regulate them either.

 

[Arachnoclown]

Hopefully shes gravid soon...

 

[Whitelightning777]

I'm almost wondering if I should get one of those slings before the 30th.

 

[Thistles]

So the only thing I'm wondering is if you physically went to the seller, did 100% of the sale within state lines and physically drove back to your house, world that be ok?

Nope, they can’t be transported across state lines at all without the right paperwork. That would certainly be the best way to avoid getting caught, though.

How do you go to federal court and try to get an injunction? Frankly, any T that had spent 100% of its life within the USA born here in captivity should really be exempt.

Unfortunately, that’s not how the ESA works for anything, and they can’t (or can’t be bothered to write new laws to) make an exception for tarantulas.

Has anyone called their congressman? Generally speaking, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Even just getting a few thousand polite emails or letters in the mail can work.

Of course, be civil and articulate. Do show how beautiful and happy your tarantulas are especially since they aren't taking what you already have.

This was originally brought up in 2011, then again in 2014. Idk what happened the first time, but in 2014 there was a week of “open comment” for people to post their opinions and experiences about the law. How generous! A whole week! Anyway, they ignored the comments from hobbyists for the most part, apparently, although fewer spiders were actually listed than were proposed.

The other thing is that they have openly started that none of our pokies meet the standards for reintroduction because they're all hybrids...which logically means that there's no reason to regulate them either.

Yeah, that makes sense to me. Typical government. Gonna get you coming and going and no consistency required.

 

[Metalman2004]

Nope, they can’t be transported across state lines at all without the right paperwork. That would certainly be the best way to avoid getting caught, though.

The USARK paper states “no permit is required for activities that do not constitute prohibited acts.“ It sure seems to me that they can indeed be transported across state lines without permit as long as it isn’t part of a “commercial activity.”

Besides that, I agree with everything else you’ve said.

 

[MassExodus]

This is more a blow to Poecis than hobbyists. Snatch up and breed as many as you can.

 

[MassExodus]

View attachment 31513 Hopefully shes gravid soon...

Freakin gorgeous

 

[Thistles]

The USARK paper states “no permit is required for activities that do not constitute prohibited acts.“ It sure seems to me that they can indeed be transported across state lines without permit as long as it isn’t part of a “commercial activity.”

Besides that, I agree with everything else you’ve said.

I’m not a lawyer, but that seems iffy to me, especially given the final bullet point with its “unlawfully taken wildlife” bit. I hope you’re right, though.

 

[Metalman2004]

I’m not a lawyer, but that seems iffy to me, especially given the final bullet point with its “unlawfully taken wildlife” bit. I hope you’re right, though.

I will grant you that there is a lot of “iffy” stuff in the writing. They contradict themselves countless times and male interpretation of the laws very difficult. That being said, there is an FAQ document here: https://www.fws.gov/endangered/esa-library/pdf/USFWS-5-Sri-Lankan-Poecilotheria-Q-As-final.pdf

Here is an important quote from it:

“Loans or gifts of ESA listed species across state lines, where neither party receives any financial benefit, are not considered interstate commercial activity under the ESA and therefore are not regulated under the ESA (do not require a permit).”

I emailed them to clarify if reciept of slings after the loan would be considered financial gain. I have a guess but am interested to see what they say.

 

[Tortoise Tom]

I emailed them to clarify if reciept of slings after the loan would be considered financial gain. I have a guess but am interested to see what they say.

This is new to the spider world, but we've been dealing with this for tortoises for many years now. Oddly enough, only two tortoise species are covered: Galapagos and Radiata. All others, no matter how rare or endangered are not covered under these CBW permit rules.

It is perfectly legal to ship them across state lines as a gift or on a "breeding loan" with ut anyone having a CBW permit on either end. It is perfectly legal to sell these species to another resident of your own home state and within your own home state with no CBW permits. It is only illegal to SELL them across state lines. Trading for other species is considered compensation and would constitute a sale. They used to allow trade in the same species, say trading some radiata babies for some radiata adults to keep bloodlines diverse in a breeding program, but they are now frowning upon that. It is also perfectly legal to haul your own animals across state lines if you are moving, or even just traveling, because you are not "selling" them and no compensation changed hands.

Beware the temptation to "give them away" to out of state friends. If ever there is an investigation and they discover ANYTHING that could be construed as compensation, you could be charged with a Federal crime.

The comment that all of our Pokies are "hybrids" tremendously confuses the issue. This is dealt with in different ways for different species. Hybrid orangutans are still considered covered under these rules. I know of no tortoise hybrids of the affected species, so this hasn't come up yet. Anyone else have other reptile or invert precedent?

 

[Metalman2004]

This is new to the spider world, but we've been dealing with this for tortoises for many years now. Oddly enough, only two tortoise species are covered: Galapagos and Radiata. All others, no matter how rare or endangered are not covered under these CBW permit rules.

It is perfectly legal to ship them across state lines as a gift or on a "breeding loan" with ut anyone having a CBW permit on either end. It is perfectly legal to sell these species to another resident of your own home state and within your own home state with no CBW permits. It is only illegal to SELL them across state lines. Trading for other species is considered compensation and would constitute a sale. They used to allow trade in the same species, say trading some radiata babies for some radiata adults to keep bloodlines diverse in a breeding program, but they are now frowning upon that. It is also perfectly legal to haul your own animals across state lines if you are moving, or even just traveling, because you are not "selling" them and no compensation changed hands.

Beware the temptation to "give them away" to out of state friends. If ever there is an investigation and they discover ANYTHING that could be construed as compensation, you could be charged with a Federal crime.

The comment that all of our Pokies are "hybrids" tremendously confuses the issue. This is dealt with in different ways for different species. Hybrid orangutans are still considered covered under these rules. I know of no tortoise hybrids of the affected species, so this hasn't come up yet. Anyone else have other reptile or invert precedent?

Seems like a pretty slippery slope. You give a MM away to a friend in another state. If they get you a Christmas present the following year the government can call it compensation if they choose to...

Thanks for the good insight.

 

[Tortoise Tom]

Seems like a pretty slippery slope. You give a MM away to a friend in another state. If they get you a Christmas present the following year the government can call it compensation if they choose to...

Thanks for the good insight.

Exactly right. Selective enforcement. You are probably fine if you are not doing the wrong thing, but they can come and bust you anytime they want and there is not a damn thing you can do about it. A well known Galop breeder just got arrested last year and had a warrant served on his property after which they confiscated a whole bunch of his animals including some that had nothing to do with the warrant. They just took them out of their life supporting environments and took them to some government building where a bunch of them died because they weren't receive proper care. They never even charged him with a crime, and he very specifically NEVER committed any crime. He followed the law to the letter at every step. They attempted to entrap him and he told them bluntly from day one that he would not break the law or bend it in any way, and he didn't. Ever. They arrested him anyway. A month later they told him they would drop all charges and return his animals if he signed a "confession" for them. He asked what crime he'd been charged with and what he was supposed to be "confessing" to? They replied we haven't charged you with anything yet and we have a year to decide what to charge you with. He asked how he was suppose to confess to something when he committed no crime and they hadn't charged him with anything. They didn't like his insolent tone...

 

[Whitelightning777]

I thought breeding loans might be considered a sale because the slings are divided up in half and sold by both parties.

It's instructive to look at some of the gun laws such as on higher capacity magazines and state lines to see the mentality of these bureaucrats.

I assume that is you are moving to a new home in another state you can take your animals with you.

 

[Metalman2004]

I thought breeding loans might be considered a sale because the slings are divided up in half and sold by both parties.

It's instructive to look at some of the gun laws such as on higher capacity magazines and state lines to see the mentality of these bureaucrats.

I assume that is you are moving to a new home in another state you can take your animals with you.

I thought the same thing regarding loans and slings, but I got a response email today:

“That is a good question. If there is no money changing hands (i.e, it is a bona fide breeding loan), there is no commercial activity involved; and therefore no interstate commerce. An attachment is provided with questions and answers regarding this new ESA listing.”

 

[Thistles]

That's great info, thanks guys!