B. Dubia question

[MassExodus]

I'll play devil's advocate here. Many of the experienced guys on that board have very large collections, and see them as that, a collection(more so than pets). Now, purposely dunking a spider into water is arguably different from leaving a spider in a roach bin that had already safely molted in it several times. The risk was definitely there(and of course, the spider ended up being eaten), but a lot of the information we have in this hobby comes from experimentation. It was an unnecessary death, but it was a sling he bred himself, and that he had tons of(I know, it doesn't justify the death). He wasn't a noob either, a pretty experienced breeder and keeper. IMO it's only as bad as those who try communals, which can work, or can result in the death of one or many spiders, or breeders/dealers that have thousands of spiders and can't put in the same care you can for one or two spiders, which inevitably leads to a few losses here and there. Are these people irresponsible as well?

Ok, you devil , but where is the payoff? What did we learn from it? That a colony of omnivores will eventually eat a spider that's molting and defenseless? We have to assume that's what happened, correct? I imagine they didn't all just attack a spider that was awake and aware, in a mob. It's not surprising, to me at least..roaches are opportunistic feeders. Were the roaches being fed regularly? What were the controls for this experiment? Any omnivore will eat a molting spider if it's starving..does that mean one of my fat, well fed dubias will try it, by itself, in a strange enclosure? I just don't think so, I think roaches are smarter than crickets.. And yes, communals can work...but what's the point? Where is the benefit from a communal, what is the risk, and what is the gain? Are these experiments for the sake of curiosity? What we're talking about is experimentation with living things for the sake of curiosity, with no real reward, for the species or for ourselves. We all know that communals can work, or work for a while and then end badly, it's already been done...And yeah, the guy bred the slings for himself, and his spiders are his, to do with as he pleases. Would people feel the same way if it was a dog in this little experiment? Or would he go to jail for animal cruelty? I know there's a line there, but it's thin, very thin. It's a matter of semantics I suppose, how you view other living things. People who like to keep roaches as pets probably would hate the fact that I feed them to my spiders on a regular basis. But they're well fed and happy until their sudden end, and the payoff is a well fed and happy bunch of spiders. So it's not like I'm killing them because I think it's interesting to observe what might happen...see what I mean? If someone is going to do experiments and research that could kill one of their pets, it should at least have some kind of valid, beneficial reward. Nothing was gained here, in either of the experiments listed above. Your rebuttal?

 

[SpiderDad61]

Well said, M.E.

 

[Kymura]

If it results in an unnecessary death, for no good purpose, or to prove a hypothesis,
then yes.
My personal opinion,(and only my opinion) is that its total bunk and completely irresponsible,
Valid experimentation is performed under controlled conditions,
It's not some keeper saying "hey, wonder if this thing will drown, or get eaten"

 

[micheldied]

Ok, you devil , but where is the payoff? What did we learn from it? That a colony of omnivores will eventually eat a spider that's molting and defenseless? We have to assume that's what happened, correct? I imagine they didn't all just attack a spider that was awake and aware, in a mob. It's not surprising, to me at least..roaches are opportunistic feeders. Were the roaches being fed regularly? What were the controls for this experiment? Any omnivore will eat a molting spider if it's starving..does that mean one of my fat, well fed dubias will try it, by itself, in a strange enclosure? I just don't think so, I think roaches are smarter than crickets.. And yes, communals can work...but what's the point? Where is the benefit from a communal, what is the risk, and what is the gain? Are these experiments for the sake of curiosity? What we're talking about is experimentation with living things for the sake of curiosity, with no real reward, for the species or for ourselves. We all know that communals can work, or work for a while and then end badly, it's already been done...And yeah, the guy bred the slings for himself, and his spiders are his, to do with as he pleases. Would people feel the same way if it was a dog in this little experiment? Or would he go to jail for animal cruelty? I know there's a line there, but it's thin, very thin. It's a matter of semantics I suppose, how you view other living things. People who like to keep roaches as pets probably would hate the fact that I feed them to my spiders on a regular basis. But they're well fed and happy until their sudden end, and the payoff is a well fed and happy bunch of spiders. So it's not like I'm killing them because I think it's interesting to observe what might happen...see what I mean? If someone is going to do experiments and research that could kill one of their pets, it should at least have some kind of valid, beneficial reward. Nothing was gained here, in either of the experiments listed above. Your rebuttal?

Maybe I should have separated my paragraphs. That last question was more rhetorical than directed at anyone.

Unfortunately, I don't have all the information, only what was posted. Likely, the roaches always had a lot of food available to them, and if this were the case then it does show(although, this is an extreme case) that roaches can pose a threat to our Ts. How big of a threat they really are left alone in a T enclosure, we don't really know(although rarely have we ever heard of an uneaten, live roach attacking a T). However, it was an answer to the OP's original post; yes, they may very likely pose a threat if left to wander a T's enclosure, especially if they get hungry. But yes, you're absolutely right that it was an experiment for the sake of curiosity. It could count as animal cruelty, although not in the way we see dogs being treated poorly. The spider was, as far as I know, feeding well and doing well, and then it was eaten. It's more similar to keeping a dog fat and healthy, and then eating it(which is done in some countries, and it's what we do to domestic food animals all over the world). One could also argue that it is completely unnecessary to keep spiders at all, and countless deaths of these feeders is just as cruel.

(Also, I'd never try a communal with most species, except the few that show true communal behavior, like M. balfouri. Hopefully I get to breed these some day.)

 

[MassExodus]

Maybe I should have separated my paragraphs. That last question was more rhetorical than directed at anyone.

Unfortunately, I don't have all the information, only what was posted. Likely, the roaches always had a lot of food available to them, and if this were the case then it does show(although, this is an extreme case) that roaches can pose a threat to our Ts. How big of a threat they really are left alone in a T enclosure, we don't really know(although rarely have we ever heard of an uneaten, live roach attacking a T). However, it was an answer to the OP's original post; yes, they may very likely pose a threat if left to wander a T's enclosure, especially if they get hungry. But yes, you're absolutely right that it was an experiment for the sake of curiosity. It could count as animal cruelty, although not in the way we see dogs being treated poorly. The spider was, as far as I know, feeding well and doing well, and then it was eaten. It's more similar to keeping a dog fat and healthy, and then eating it(which is done in some countries, and it's what we do to domestic food animals all over the world). One could also argue that it is completely unnecessary to keep spiders at all, and countless deaths of these feeders is just as cruel.

(Also, I'd never try a communal with most species, except the few that show true communal behavior, like M. balfouri. Hopefully I get to breed these some day.)

I see what you're saying, and I don't disagree with any of it. Still, the experiment with the roaches was a waste of a good spider. I've been feeding dubia for at least four years, I've never crushed them, and if they escape, that spider does the digging, I don't. I find live roaches under or near the water dish all the time, and don't ever touch them. Eventually the spider eats them. Not once has there been any incident of predation on the spiders by the roaches. Granted, my collection is still small, compared to some, but 36 spiders still seems like a big enough group to make an informed decision about feeding dubia, I think. My slings get nymphs and halved superworms, juvies get medium dubia and full sized worms, and so on. I recently started hearing about superworms being dangerous as well, but once again, I've never had an issue with them..I would worry about those jaws feeding them to a sling, which is why they get cut in half, but juvies and adults deal with them easily, and I've never, ever witnessed a superworm that burrowed come to the surface again, so I don't see them messing with a molting spider..they burrow, and if the spider doesn't dig them up they pupate into beetles. The beetles worry me, because I've tried breeding them and they kill and eat each other sometimes. So when one surfaces, and starts fumbling around, entirely visible, I kill it. But as you pointed out, I have a small enough collection to give my spiders individual attention every day, some folks have a lot more to care for..I just don't think these two feeders are much to worry about...crickets are another story.

 

[RedCapTrio]

Well, very sensible @MassExodus

As for me, I think my collection at 8Ts will be complete when I have the 9th.

 

[MassExodus]

Well, very sensible @MassExodus

As for me, I think my collection at 8Ts will be complete when I have the 9th.

Hahaha, I used to say stuff like that too..good luck brother, you'll need it..

 

[SpiderDad61]

Well, very sensible @MassExodus

As for me, I think my collection at 8Ts will be complete when I have the 9th.

I said 1 was enough...now I find myself buying 3 at a time, and always shopping for more:/

 

[MassExodus]

My newest saying is "There's just a few more that I need to get, I'll cap it at 40 or 45..." meanwhile I'm eyeballing every spider that has Phormictopus or Pamphobeteus in it's name, while bookmarking dwarf species online and researching P sazamai (spelling?) and looking in classifieds for a female boehmei...yeah, I'll cap it at 45...then buy more shelves.

 

[micheldied]

I see what you're saying, and I don't disagree with any of it. Still, the experiment with the roaches was a waste of a good spider. I've been feeding dubia for at least four years, I've never crushed them, and if they escape, that spider does the digging, I don't. I find live roaches under or near the water dish all the time, and don't ever touch them. Eventually the spider eats them. Not once has there been any incident of predation on the spiders by the roaches. Granted, my collection is still small, compared to some, but 36 spiders still seems like a big enough group to make an informed decision about feeding dubia, I think. My slings get nymphs and halved superworms, juvies get medium dubia and full sized worms, and so on. I recently started hearing about superworms being dangerous as well, but once again, I've never had an issue with them..I would worry about those jaws feeding them to a sling, which is why they get cut in half, but juvies and adults deal with them easily, and I've never, ever witnessed a superworm that burrowed come to the surface again, so I don't see them messing with a molting spider..they burrow, and if the spider doesn't dig them up they pupate into beetles. The beetles worry me, because I've tried breeding them and they kill and eat each other sometimes. So when one surfaces, and starts fumbling around, entirely visible, I kill it. But as you pointed out, I have a small enough collection to give my spiders individual attention every day, some folks have a lot more to care for..I just don't think these two feeders are much to worry about...crickets are another story.

The risk with dubia is very low. Personally, I've never taken the risk and left any in my T enclosures more than a day, but I have left them with Scolopendra. I have seen superworm beetles emerge and kill Ts, by the way. More than once.

 

[DIscount Dubias]

Dubias are scavengers and are much more passive than crickets - if they did attempt a go at a live spider then they would have to have been starving. While I don't want to strictly condone leaving them running around with the spiders (as I can't prove that that has never happened), I think you will probably be ok.