Why we use "mechanical moms" and ICU units!!!

[entomology]

Ruan your breeding of hybrids alone are a disgrace and don't need justification for that!!! You don't know how long I've been keeping tarantulas and i can already see you have allot to learn about animal husbandry especially with the way you house your tarantulas.i am here to referring to the pics you uploaded onto my thread.I am now asking for the last time stick to the topic of the thread or can you not read??!!!!!!!

 

[Ceratogyrus]

Hello again
I would just like to see this thread go back to its original reason for being made, also I reiterate that saying a certain specimen could possibly be a hybrid or not the actual species in question without a correct analysis or dissection in my opinion is one sided. This lets me think of trying to shoot one down so the other looks good, which in actual fact nothing has been proven so discussion null and void. Also when stating a possible hybrid, you aren't just insulting the hobbyist but the supplier it came from. In my opinion logic says its a dangerous path, I wouldn't make such a bold statement not substantiated.

I agree, that's why I would like to see a clear pic of the abdomen. I find this really funny that seen as you are so against hybrids, you would not want to know that that spider is not possibly a hybrid. Maybe it is not and then there is no problem and we can get these out into the market? Surely with your stance, we should try and make sure of this first before breeding? Whether it is my spider, your spider or Stan's spider.
There has been a lot of confusion with the subfusca complex unfortunately, so to be perfectly honest, once there is DNA analysis, I would be surprised if 10% of the hobby spec lowland would actually be a pure species anymore. And that includes my spiders unfortunately.
Unfortunately we are still a way behind and spiders don't get the grants and funds that other animals do, so it is a slow uphill road.

 

[entomology]

stick to topic!!!! you see you have a hearing and reading problem.... eish ya and so do all of us too....

 

[Ceratogyrus]

Ruan your breeding of hybrids alone are a disgrace and don't need justification for that!!! You don't know how long I've been keeping tarantulas and i can already see you have allot to learn about animal husbandry especially with the way you house your tarantulas.i am here to referring to the pics you uploaded onto my thread.I am now asking for the last time stick to the topic of the thread or can you not read??!!!!!!!

Please post the pic then on the subfusca thread and we can continue an adult discussion there.
My spiders have been kept happy and breeding for 20 years, so the husbandry can't be that bad hey?

 

[entomology]

Perfectly said Martin
now lets hope we can all stick to the topic of mechanical moms

 

[entomology]

firstly I would need an adult to have the discussion with???? yeah and I've been working with wildlife for over 20 years not just tarantulas

 

[Martin Oosthuysen]

I agree, that's why I would like to see a clear pic of the abdomen. I find this really funny that seen as you are so against hybrids, you would not want to know that that spider is not possibly a hybrid. Maybe it is not and then there is no problem and we can get these out into the market? Surely with your stance, we should try and make sure of this first before breeding? Whether it is my spider, your spider or Stan's spider.
There has been a lot of confusion with the subfusca complex unfortunately, so to be perfectly honest, once there is DNA analysis, I would be surprised if 10% of the hobby spec lowland would actually be a pure species anymore. And that includes my spiders unfortunately.
Unfortunately we are still a way behind and spiders don't get the grants and funds that other animals do, so it is a slow uphill road.

Okay,yes I dislike hybrids but using me to justify this is not right. You were fighting against me about hybrids, be it my reasons for being against it etc. One thing I never did once was accuse you of having hybrids this you ADMITTED YOURSELF, still I've never said your others could be possible hybrids due to the statement meaning I could have pulled your credibility down and into question. I agree on the abdominal markings, but even those aren't 100% or are they now accepted as being a definite ? I'm asking out of curiosity and I like learning, seeing they have used leg markings and carapace markings with pokies as well. So again I dislike hybrids, but o wouldn't make such a bold and unsubstantiated statement purely from an observation of a photo. You can look at this the way you choose, you yourself said the specimen needs study ? Also in this statement you are indirectly not just putting him on the spot but the supplier, can't you see the wrong in this ?

 

[Ceratogyrus]

firstly I would need an adult to have the discussion with???? yeah and I've been working with wildlife for over 20 years not just tarantulas

Ok, will wait for you to post the pic on the other thread then. Congrats on the keeping of wildlife for over 20 years. I haven't kept any large animals other than dogs, always preferred to concentrate on spiders alone, but if I ever do decide to keep a tiger, I will contact you as you seem to know what you are doing when it comes to that atleast.
You never replied to my BBM by the way...

 

[Ceratogyrus]

Okay,yes I dislike hybrids but using me to justify this is not right. You were fighting against me about hybrids, be it my reasons for being against it etc. One thing I never did once was accuse you of having hybrids this you ADMITTED YOURSELF, still I've never said your others could be possible hybrids die to the statement meaning I could have pulled your credibility down and into question. I agree on the abdominal markings, but even those aren't 100% or are they now accepted as being a definite ? I'm asking out of curiosity and I like learning, seeing they have used leg markings and carapace markings with pokies as well. So again I dislike hybrids, but o wouldn't make such a bold and unsubstantiated statement purely from an observation of a photo. You can look at this the way you choose, you yourself said the specimen needs study ? Also in this statement you are indirectly not just putting him on the spot but the supplier, can't you see the wrong in this ?

Sorry for the off topic, but you asked me to reply.
The abdominal markings are currently the only way to differentiate between subfusca and spec lowland. Their leg markings are identical. Carapace markings are not an accurate way to ID pokies though.
Maybe he doesn't know its a hybrid (Not saying it is, just using it as an example). Surely you would like to know that if someone had more accurate info about the species, before you bred it?

 

[Martin Oosthuysen]

Sorry for the off topic, but you asked me to reply.
The abdominal markings are currently the only way to differentiate between subfusca and spec lowland. Their leg markings are identical. Carapace markings are not an accurate way to ID pokies though.
Maybe he doesn't know its a hybrid (Not saying it is, just using it as an example). Surely you would like to know that if someone had more accurate info about the species, before you bred it?

Something confusing now, the leg markings are the same ? Isn't it with pokies that those never correspond unless the same species ? Is it then just a different color morph ? I've read on BTS that the lowlands origin is in question anyway, but I haven't read the whole thread as well .Yes if it was me and I had it, I would have wanted to know if its that said species. Look at what I'm saying, saying a specimen could possibly be a hybrid isn't right. No proof is submitted to even pull it into question, we all know photos no matter how could isn't even close to full proof identification. Now finishing this, could we please stick to why this thread was made the mechanical mom.

 

[Martin Oosthuysen]

This is what I use as guideline,I'm still learning with pokies and Avics. Since these are the two genera I will be concentrating on, and will build on it.

 

[entomology]

Martin
There is allot of discussion regarding the P subfusca lowland/highland morphs. some suggest its only the coloration morphs that differ not different species and they are found in different altitudes. Scientists are doing field research so "we" can only speculate that all.

 

[entomology]

They are both subfusca just one is "highland" and the other" lowland" nothing about "true subfusca" load of nonsense.

 

[Ceratogyrus]

The leg markings are what they currently use for identification.
There are exceptions though...
Very interesting when you look at the 3 variations of vittata. All 3 have slightly different leg patterning on leg IV, yet they are the same species. You can also get the different variations in the same sac.
http://www.kryp.forum24.se/kryp-post-69835.html
Same as ornata vs ornata sp.blue. Also have slightly different leg patterns, but still considered the same species as there are variations within the same sac. I actually have 2 ornata that I kept back from my ornata pairing. Both parents were proper ornata, but the 2 that I kept back have both turned out to be ornata sp.blue.
http://www.google.co.za/imgres?hl=e...&w=624&h=209&ei=C61_UPqjN4OxtAb1t4C4Dg&zoom=1
P.subfusca seems to be from different localities, but they might just be variations of the same thing. I feel it is better to keep those seperate for the moment though as there is no solid proof that they are from the same sac plus they have the marked difference in abdominal patterns.

 

[Ceratogyrus]

They are both subfusca just one is "highland" and the other" lowland" nothing about "true subfusca" load of nonsense.

That is the old info, but we have moved ahead from those days. Improved or evolved our views if you like.
Go check out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/Poecilotheria/ Some very good info on there to look through and feel free to ask questions on there to Steve Richter.

 

[Martin Oosthuysen]

Martin
There is allot of discussion regarding the P subfusca lowland/highland morphs. some suggest its only the coloration morphs that differ not different species and they are found in different altitudes. Scientists are doing field research so "we" can only speculate that all.

That's why I was wondering, since in the leg marking and carapace descriptions it is only poecilotheria subfusca no mention of high or low. That's why I wondered if its not just a different variant, instead of species.

 

[entomology]

opisthosoma dorsal markings are different yes but does not indicate different species. Ok once again stick to the topic!!!! why we use mechanical moms?

 

[entomology]

There is only highland and lowland form of subfusca and the coloration markings will show the difference between the 2 thast all.

 

[Ceratogyrus]

There is only highland and lowland form of subfusca and the coloration markings will show the difference between the 2 thast all.

I know you don't want to learn new things, but for everyone else, please do yourself a favour and go check out the Poecilotheria facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/Poecilotheria/

 

[entomology]

we learn everyday in the conservation industry!!! maybe you should take your own advice.