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Why we use "mechanical moms" and ICU units!!!

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entomology

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I would like to start this "topic" and is open for discussion so please feel free to comment.
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For many years now zoos and institutes working with a "live animal" collection would be in the possession of an ICU unit ( intensive care unit) for the sole purpose of maintaining a controlled environment for the new born species whether its for mammals.avian.placentals etc etc.

A mechanical mom works in the same way controlling the temperature and humidity thereby keeping the environment stable and preventing bacteria entering whereas in a "natural area this is most likely to happen also keeping in mind you are keeping your tarantula in an artificial environment therefore subjecting it to all sorts of bacteria and diseases it will succumb . I've worked in most zoos and its a "given fact" to use ICU units soon after the babies are born after 48 hrs remove after absorption of colostrum is absorbed into the system to boost immune system esp for mammals. Birds go into a Grumbach incubator because many species reject their young or die as a result of temperature changers and diseases picked up.

a mechanical mom eliminates:
temperature fluctuations
bacteria
saturation off egg sack
isopods
mites
"stress" from mom and eating the egg sack
female rupturing an egg in the sack.
feeders are a threat if inside the enclosure with female and egg sack.

please keep in mind you cannot compare" wild specimens" to captive specimens that are housed artificially inside an enclosure (vivarium)

What makes sense is always eliminate all the bad things that can go wrong if the sack is left with mom. most of the time it ends up disastrous because there is too much humidity or too little or temperature related or mom just eats the sack its that simple and that's why people put effort into building a mechanical mom to ensure a "good egg sack" and better controlled environment.

From the mechanical mom the "eggs with legs" will move into an ICU unit with exactly the same humidity and temperature maintained as with the Mech mom as changes can cause the death of your slings.

mechanical moms work!!!! and people that always have negative comments have either not used one or have failed hopelessly at attempts to try build one correctly and tested it lengthy.
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Martin Oosthuysen

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Hello
Nice explanation, I see this as something I'd like to try in the future. I'm not experienced with this at all, I'm still using the old fashioned way not even an incubator. I just use the mom, so far I've had great success I bet with this even better. Its all progress, same with everything in life.
 

entomology

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Hi Martin
just keep in mind that the tarantula you are housing that has an egg sack is not in the "wild" but in an enclosure so it is subjected to "problems". In short mechanical moms work very well and I've had 100% success with mine each time!!! People that are negative towards it just cannot build one correctly and don't fully understand the need for one. Mom is not always best and ppl forget tarantulas are cannibalistic by nature so does the ppl that leave the egg sack there count each day to see if any are missing??? chomp chomp :)
 

Martin Oosthuysen

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I get where you're coming from, I've just been using old ways. At a certain stage I would still take away the slings. I really want to try this, when I have free time I will start at a point to try and I mean try and build one.
 

Ceratogyrus

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I believe in leaving the sac with the female as they have somehow managed to do this for centuries without our help. I have also personally had good success leaving the sacs with the females. If the conditions were good enough to drop they will be good enough to hatch in the same conditions. Also by leaving the sac with the female till 2nd instar it gives the EWL and 1st instars a chance to pick off the weaklings. I think by pulling all the weaklings through we are weakening the gene pool.
 

Ceratogyrus

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If you want to use the babies for a communal (especially a communal with the mother), then it is also best to keep the sac with the female. Keeping sac mates together from 2nd instar reduces the chance of cannabilism.
 

entomology

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well we did not house spiders centuries ago as climate and topography has changed dramatically over that period. If leaving with mom works for you then do so. We house spiders in an artificial environment so once again please read the thread correctly as this thread is directed for CAPTIVE SPECIES. behavioral changes are different to that of the "wild". why lose second instar's that are weaker if you have an incubator to pull them through??!!! a weaker specimen does not essentially mean its gene pool related.
 

Martin Oosthuysen

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Something I have to ask, seeing are all living organisms in the end. When breeding dogs, you'd find the runt of the litter would die in the wild but many an occasion I've pulled runts through and have grown up to be the strongest best breeding specimens. I can say this, since I bred true Boerboels with bloodlines etc, also I have bred Staffordshire terriers as well. I am still learning tarantulas, but again I have to ask is the above not possible with any animal etc ? Oh, we have also bred marmosets and found the same.
 

entomology

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Hi Martin
The same principal would apply for all sentient beings irrespective of species. I have raised lions,Tigers,Jaguars,leopards,leopards,reptiles,birds etc etc and you can name it I've raised them all and the smallest of the "litter" eventually becomes the strongest with the help of"man" so hence we use"night rooms" in zoos which are heated or an incubator for smaller species so yes our help and instinctive behavior to intervene saves that living species:)
 

entomology

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Ive bred allot of tarantulas and cannibalism is big with P metallica hence I say put communal when they are 5cm+ because just before 3rd instar they become hungry and eat their brothers and sisters!!! They are cannibalistic by nature and even the female will eat her young.
 

Martin Oosthuysen

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Well I'm not as well accustomed to P.Metallica's as the two of you, but I wouldn't want to cause harm knowingly. Maybe I'm too soft at heart, but I won't allow it. If we as humans adopted that stance, half of the human race would be put down. A weak human could procreate a strong offspring, so in any living organism it stands to reason its the same.
 
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Ceratogyrus

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That's what's so great about the hobby. Everyone has their own opinions. :)
Just like you believe we need new bloodlines in SA because they are weakened, I believe that keeping the weaker specimens is detrimental. I might end up with less specimens out of an egg case with mine, but they are definately bigger and stronger than if I had separated them. It happens in nature and that is what we are trying to simulate.
But once again, there are many ways to skin a cat, and people have different methods that work. :) What works for me, might not work for you.
From personal experience, I have tried reuniting babies after being separated and there are higher losses than those left from the start.
There are actually no losses caused by the female when kept with her babies. They are really unaggressive towards the offspring actually. This is from keeping 6 different pokie species communally. A highly tolerant (wouldn't consider them communal) genus. :)
 

entomology

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Gene pool pollution is a big NO and bloodline is important and as I've mentioned this before that its a fundamental rule not too inbreed irrespective of species. Separated specimens whilst small has the same outcome.They all thrive on their controlled environment. I've witnessed a female eat slings before. Tarantulas are all cannibalistic by nature and when doing a communal the risk is always there :) Do yourself a favor and build a mechanical mom and you mortality rates will drop and you wont be so sad :-(. just ask many in the hobby to assist you in that regard.
 

Ceratogyrus

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Separated specimens whilst small has the same outcome.They all thrive on their controlled environment. I've witnessed a female eat slings before. Tarantulas are all cannibalistic by nature and when doing a communal the risk is always there :) Do yourself a favor and build a mechanical mom and you mortality rates will drop and you wont be so sad :-(. just ask many in the hobby to assist you in that regard.

I have found the opposite when it comes to separated specimens in pokies. Once returned there are higher losses than those left from the egg sac. Also haven't had any losses from my female preying on her offspring from 6 different pokie species. Which species did you witness cannabilism from the female?
There is definately a risk when doing communals, but because pokies are so tolerant (other than ornata) they are generally a safe bet. :)
Like I said, different strokes for different folks, so I don't need a mechanical mom. Quite happy with doing it as natural as possible. It seems to work for myself and the other folk that don't use them. :)
 
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