Cross breeding

[Ceratogyrus]

You are getting your terminology all mixed up which is confusing you.
Let's take a Rear horned baboon spider for example.
The FAMILY is Theraphosidae. There are many different Genera within this family such as Brachypelma, Lasiodora and Ceratogyrus.
The GENUS is Ceratogyrus. Within Ceratogyrus there are many species such as brachycephalus, marshalli and darlingi.
The SPECIES is darlingi

If you were to breed 2 species within a Genus you would probably get fertile offspring. This is seen in the many unintentional/intentional hybrids made in the hobby from, to name a few, Ceratogyrus, Brachypelma, Lasiodora and Avicularia.
If you were to try breed 2 species from different Genera together it would probably not even get past the mating stage as the different Genera would have unique courtship behavior, mating triggers and pheromones.

 

[Ceratogyrus]

To add to this, there probably is some benefit to hybridizing to the scientific community working with DNA. As long as you keep the male and female and some offspring (The rest need to be culled) for study. Genetics would be able to help to see which traits are carried over from which parents. But I guess the original post was not referring to this.

The problem I have seen with hybrids is that the offspring often carry all the characteristics of the one parent in the first generation. This probably means that some of the recessive genes will be stored in its genetic makeup and could make an appearance in a later generation. This obviously causes serious problems.

So basically, when it comes to the hobby, hybridization is really not needed.

 

[Martin Oosthuysen]

Hello
Might have got the wording crossed, but luckily not my T's. Crossing within the same genus say Brachypelma would work which I said, but say a Brachypelma with a lasiodora different genus in the same sub family Theraphosinae that would not work better accepted reply now ?

 

[Ceratogyrus]

Hello
Might have got the wording crossed, but luckily not my T's. Crossing within the same genus say Brachypelma would work which I said, but say a Brachypelma with a lasiodora in the same family Theraphosidae that would not work better accepted reply now ?

That makes a bit more sense, yes.
Crossing species within a genus could work. Between different genera, probably not, but not impossible...

 

[Martin Oosthuysen]

The same genus would still cause abnormalities/deformities. So just imagine another genus in the same sub family, can imagine the odds stacked there. In the end, there are more negative than positive things gained from it.
Genus - Destroyed due to tarantulas that have no place in the listing
Deformities - Tarantulas suffer for peoples mistakes
Hobby - zero trust in breeders
The Scientific community - just more proof hobbyists aren't capable of looking after exotic pets
The end result, hobby dies due to stricter rules and regulations
Just my opinion.

 

[Ceratogyrus]

The same genus would still cause abnormalities/deformities. So just imagine another genus in the same sub family, can imagine the odds stacked there. In the end, there are more negative than positive things gained from it.
Genus - Destroyed due to tarantulas that have no place in the listing
Deformities - Tarantulas suffer for peoples mistakes
Hobby - zero trust in breeders
The Scientific community - just more proof hobbyists aren't capable of looking after exotic pets
The end result, hobby dies due to stricter rules and regulations
Just my opinion.

I disagree fully with deformities being caused by breeding species within a genus. I have had a few hybrids past and present and no deformities have been noticed. Do you have any proof/pictures/articles mentioning these abnormalities/deformities?
Like I said, I doubt that species from different genera would even mate, but you never know. They could have perfectly healthy babies for all we know?

 

[Lawrence b]

I agree people should not cross breed Tarantulas ,there always new ones coming out if you want something different get one.

 

[Martin Oosthuysen]

Diluting the gene pool, losing a species for good.Captive population
This seems to be one of the main concerns for hobbyists and with good reason. 1 person’s fascination with hybridization could over many generations result in many of 1 species having the DNA of another sub species. This could theoretically extinct the pure breed and/or make identification difficult.

Wild population
With tarantulas being spread throughout the world, having so many variations and with the majority of them being so widely spread it becomes very difficult to isolate a wild population. If any of these hybrids did somehow end up mixing with the wild population it would contaminate the gene pool.
Upon a global catastrophe the captive stock we have wouldn’t be of pure breed.
Owning a Hybrid.Advantages

Unique
You would have a unique/semi-unique tarantula.

Disadvantages

Temperament
We often think of hybridization as a long process of captive interbreeding. But the majority of hybrid tarantulas I’ve come across have been more aggressive than the original specimen

Health Issues
It has been documented that many are often infertile and many other side effects could occur i.e. reduced lifespan, molting complications.

Appearance
Many tarantulas already have to me some of the most beautiful colours and markings. Hybrids can end up having a dull, less vibrant appearance.

What species have you got?
Some tarantulas can be difficult to distinguish even now and as spiderlings near impossible with some species. This would be even more difficult with a hybrid.

This is my view like or dislike, have fun in debating the above. To add some humour - Selling point with a Greenbottle Blue Tarantula (Chromatopelma cyaneopubescens) it is a beautiful Tarantula from Paraguana Peninsula Venezuela - reply wow nice exotic Tarantula I want it, what about that one ? - Oh that I a hybrid from my backyard - Uhm nevermind I will get back to you. (like never)

 

[Ceratogyrus]

Diluting the gene pool, losing a species for good.Captive population
This seems to be one of the main concerns for hobbyists and with good reason. 1 person’s fascination with hybridization could over many generations result in many of 1 species having the DNA of another sub species. This could theoretically extinct the pure breed and/or make identification difficult.

Wild population
With tarantulas being spread throughout the world, having so many variations and with the majority of them being so widely spread it becomes very difficult to isolate a wild population. If any of these hybrids did somehow end up mixing with the wild population it would contaminate the gene pool.
Upon a global catastrophe the captive stock we have wouldn’t be of pure breed.
Owning a Hybrid.Advantages

Unique
You would have a unique/semi-unique tarantula.

Disadvantages

Temperament
We often think of hybridization as a long process of captive interbreeding. But the majority of hybrid tarantulas I’ve come across have been more aggressive than the original specimen

Health Issues
It has been documented that many are often infertile and many other side effects could occur i.e. reduced lifespan, molting complications.

Appearance
Many tarantulas already have to me some of the most beautiful colours and markings. Hybrids can end up having a dull, less vibrant appearance.

What species have you got?
Some tarantulas can be difficult to distinguish even now and as spiderlings near impossible with some species. This would be even more difficult with a hybrid.

This is my view like or dislike, have fun in debating the above. To add some humour - Selling point with a Greenbottle Blue Tarantula (Chromatopelma cyaneopubescens) it is a beautiful Tarantula from Paraguana Peninsula Venezuela - reply wow nice exotic Tarantula I want it, what about that one ? - Oh that I a hybrid from my backyard - Uhm nevermind I will get back to you. (like never)

Ok, I'll stop commenting now as this is a one way discussion.
I agree fully that hybrids are bad for the hobby, but saying that they have abnormalities, deformities, infertility, problems moulting, more aggressive, shorter lifespan, less colour, etc without even giving a reference to an article, picture, etc is pretty pointless. From personal experience, none of those are true...

 

[Martin Oosthuysen]

Okay I have been looking at different websites etc, and decided to reply this way.

1.
Hybrids are not always infertile.
2.
Hybrids happen nature as well as in the hobby
3. Hybrids are not right when
- its not in the wild, because those happen as necessity not personal status gain.
4. Is there proof of negative outcomes of hybrids in the hobby like molting problems, defects etc ?
- only discussions and personal experiences
- who would actually honestly admit to a hybrid sack failure ? No one, since its already frowned upon.
5. Has there been any documents showing its not with negative results ? No, which is weird you would brag with success.

Conclusion
- hybrids are okay in nature not the hobby, we just want a bigger better looking ones,nature a better surviving one.

 

[Ceratogyrus]

Okay I have been looking at different websites etc, and decided to reply this way.

1.
Hybrids are not always infertile.
2.
Hybrids happen nature as well as in the hobby
3. Hybrids are not right when
- its not in the wild, because those happen as necessity not personal status gain.
4. Is there proof of negative outcomes of hybrids in the hobby like molting problems, defects etc ?
- only discussions and personal experiences
- who would actually honestly admit to a hybrid sack failure ? No one, since its already frowned upon.
5. Has there been any documents showing its not with negative results ? No, which is weird you would brag with success.

Conclusion
- hybrids are okay in nature not the hobby, we just want a bigger better looking ones,nature a better surviving one.

That makes a bit more sense, except I'm not sure what you mean with your answer in 5.

As I said the hybrids that I have owned/own have had no hassles moulting, etc.

Also, I am generally against hybrids as they cause confusion if they were to get out into the hobby, so I mostly agree with this thread. What I don't agree with is pure speculation based on things that you hear or read from people. If I were to believe everything I heard or read, I would definitely have enclosures full of dead spiders.

 

[Martin Oosthuysen]

Yet again, nothing to prove its not so ? No one admits failure only success, chances even made worse by judgements already ongoing due to hybrids. Point 5 easy, how many successful hybrid sacks documented with the same yielding as a normal breeding and no higher than normal fatalities.

Okay I have been looking at different websites etc, and decided to reply this way.

1.
Hybrids are not always infertile.
2.
Hybrids happen nature as well as in the hobby
3. Hybrids are not right when
- its not in the wild, because those happen as necessity not personal status gain.
4. Is there proof of negative outcomes of hybrids in the hobby like molting problems, defects etc ?
- only discussions and personal experiences
- who would actually honestly admit to a hybrid sack failure ? No one, since its already frowned upon.
5. Has there been any documents showing its not with negative results ? No, which is weird you would brag with success.

Conclusion
- hybrids are okay in nature not the hobby, we just want a bigger better looking ones,nature a better surviving one.

Also I think the reply is self explanatory, hybrids in the hobby are done for human gain either beauty size or just different very selfish whereas nature like stated necessity.
So how to justify hobby hybrids, its not for nature nor science its hobby value.

 

[Ceratogyrus]

Yet again, nothing to prove its not so ? No one admits failure only success, chances even made worse by judgements already ongoing due to hybrids. Point 5 easy, how many successful hybrid sacks documented with the same yielding as a normal breeding and no higher than normal fatalities.

Also I think the reply is self explanatory, hybrids in the hobby are done for human gain either beauty size or just different very selfish whereas nature like stated necessity.
So how to justify hobby hybrids, its not for nature nor science its hobby value.

I have hybrids that have had no hassles moulting, etc (Or none more than you would expect from normal babies). Anybody had hybrids here that have passed away from moulting issues, deformities, etc?

As for documentation regarding fatalities. It is very difficult to quantify what are normal losses in normal sacs for a start.
The fact that so many Brachypelma, Lasiodora, Ceratogyrus, Avicularia, Pamphobeteus, etc hybrids are alive and well in the hobby is enough proof to me that they will survive with the same problems as pure spiders have to deal with. If the spiders had all of theses hassles with deformities, etc and were weaklings prone to dying for no reason, we would not be having this conversation as there would be nothing to worry about.

My hybrids are being raised to prove a few points regarding one of the messed up genera mentioned above, so not for personal gain, but rather for gain in the hobby overall.

 

[Martin Oosthuysen]

No personal gain, like you said we do not take evidence just because someone says so. Also none of the above really truly is a reply on the post, and please elaborate what does your hybrid T's help with the necessity which is the reason for hybrids in nature.

Okay I have been looking at different websites etc, and decided to reply this way.

1.
Hybrids are not always infertile.
2.
Hybrids happen nature as well as in the hobby
3. Hybrids are not right when
- its not in the wild, because those happen as necessity not personal status gain.
4. Is there proof of negative outcomes of hybrids in the hobby like molting problems, defects etc ?
- only discussions and personal experiences
- who would actually honestly admit to a hybrid sack failure ? No one, since its already frowned upon.
5. Has there been any documents showing its not with negative results ? No, which is weird you would brag with success.

Conclusion
- hybrids are okay in nature not the hobby, we just want a bigger better looking ones,nature a better surviving one.

I will keep adding my post, since you say you have had a few that were okay ? Is this documented ? Again, we do not go on word of mouth I've learned my lesson so to say. Again repeating due to shock, for the hobby this is why you are raising hybrids ? Okay that's like admission, its not for the tarantula but the hobby. Unless tarantulas start collecting tarantulas, its a one way gain not seen in natural occurring hybrids.

 

[Ceratogyrus]

No personal gain, like you said we do not take evidence just because someone says so. Also none of the above really truly is a reply on the post, and please elaborate what does your hybrid T's help with the necessity which is the reason for hybrids in nature.


I will keep adding my post, since you say you have had a few that were okay ? Is this documented ? Again, we do not go on word of mouth I've learned my lesson so to say.

I have the spiders and say they are healthy like any other tarantula, you are the one that says they should be deformed. If you get the people that say they are deformed, die in moults, etc to post on here with their first hand knowledge and observations, I will gladly discuss with them. If you like I could take pics of my slings, showing they are healthy, but not sure what this would prove. I would love to be able to chat to a person that has had serious losses from a hybrid sac BECAUSE they are hybrids. I just don't like hearing stories that a person once spoke to a guy who's uncle had some hybrid spiders who died.

There is a spider in the hobby that is assumed is a hybrid (Let's call it Species A for this example, as I would like to keep the actual species a secret till I have some hard evidence). I have crossed the 2 species that they claim made the Species A to see if the babies end up like Species A in morphology, looks, etc.
I got a good egg case from the parents and left the babies together till I had 10 left. These 10 I am currently raising. Everything is being documented though.

 

[Ceratogyrus]

Anybody else like to chime in here with questions, observations, etc?

 

[Martin Oosthuysen]

No personal gain, like you said we do not take evidence just because someone says so. Also none of the above really truly is a reply on the post, and please elaborate what does your hybrid T's help with the necessity which is the reason for hybrids in nature.

Okay I have been looking at different websites etc, and decided to reply this way.

1.
Hybrids are not always infertile.
2.
Hybrids happen nature as well as in the hobby
3. Hybrids are not right when
- its not in the wild, because those happen as necessity not personal status gain.
4. Is there proof of negative outcomes of hybrids in the hobby like molting problems, defects etc ?
- only discussions and personal experiences
- who would actually honestly admit to a hybrid sack failure ? No one, since its already frowned upon.
5. Has there been any documents showing its not with negative results ? No, which is weird you would brag with success.

Conclusion
- hybrids are okay in nature not the hobby, we just want a bigger better looking ones,nature a better surviving one.

I will keep adding my post, since you say you have had a few that were okay ? Is this documented ? Again, we do not go on word of mouth I've learned my lesson so to say. Again repeating due to shock, for the hobby this is why you are raising hybrids ? Okay that's like admission, its not for the tarantula but the hobby. Unless tarantulas start collecting tarantulas, its a one way gain not seen in natural occurring hybrids.

Okay please look at what you said, for the hobby including yourself not for the tarantula or by necessity. This is not going to happen by me accepting word of mouth but documentation, and still its worthless since its either personal gain/hobby making it wrong. Tarantulas don't keep tarantulas, and its not a necessity the hybrid attempt . It only happens in nature because it has to, not to create a tarantula superstar.

 

[Ceratogyrus]

Ok, you are not making much sense now...
What do you need me to do?
You are the one claiming you heard that they are infertile, deformed, etc and now you say even if I have documentation you won't accept it? That's a little pointless if you are so stuck in your belief that nothing that I say or prove to you will change your mind. Suppose the thread has hit its end unless you want something else from me?

 

[Martin Oosthuysen]

Lmao, and I said I have answered your questions differently. You haven't given any evidence except what you say ? So it means nothing. You said its for the betterment of the hobby ? So its not in necessity, like nature making it selfish and wrong. Since only betterment would be the look of the tarantula, not the tarantulas future. Again !!! Tarantulas don't keep tarantula, no gain for them. Didn't claim read online, they discussed deformities but you have Google right ? (4. Is there proof of negative outcomes of hybrids in the hobby like molting problems, defects etc ?
- only discussions and personal experiences
- who would actually honestly admit to a hybrid sack failure ? No one, since its already frowned upon.)Also since I replied with my answer below, I have not once went with word of mouth.

Another miscalculation, you said that success or mortality would be the same as a normal breeding project, and that there are many well and alive in the hobby wow you must know a lot of people or keep tabs ? I'd have to disagree, many more normal projects well documented over the years, can't see hybrid breeding projects been documented just as strict as the above or at all unless you could direct me ? Another thing, keeping a few hybrids, doesn't mean its safe with no negative outcomes. Breeding and replicating the breeding would show that, unless the minor out way the majority.

Okay I have been looking at different websites etc, and decided to reply this way.

1.
Hybrids are not always infertile.
2.
Hybrids happen nature as well as in the hobby
3. Hybrids are not right when
- its not in the wild, because those happen as necessity not personal status gain.
4. Is there proof of negative outcomes of hybrids in the hobby like molting problems, defects etc ?
- only discussions and personal experiences
- who would actually honestly admit to a hybrid sack failure ? No one, since its already frowned upon.
5. Has there been any documents showing its not with negative results ? No, which is weird you would brag with success.

Conclusion
- hybrids are okay in nature not the hobby, we just want a bigger better looking ones,nature a better surviving one.

 

[Ceratogyrus]

Lmao, and I said I have answered your questions differently. You haven't given any evidence except what you say ? So it means nothing. You said its for the betterment of the hobby ? So its not in necessity, like nature making it selfish and wrong. Since only betterment would be the look of the tarantula, not the tarantulas future. Again !!! Tarantulas don't keep tarantula, no gain for them. Didn't claim read online, they discussed deformities but you have Google right ? Also since I replied with my answer below, I have not once went with word of mouth.


Okay I have been looking at different websites etc, and decided to reply this way.

1.
Hybrids are not always infertile.
2.
Hybrids happen nature as well as in the hobby
3. Hybrids are not right when
- its not in the wild, because those happen as necessity not personal status gain.
4. Is there proof of negative outcomes of hybrids in the hobby like molting problems, defects etc ?
- only discussions and personal experiences
- who would actually honestly admit to a hybrid sack failure ? No one, since its already frowned upon.
5. Has there been any documents showing its not with negative results ? No, which is weird you would brag with success.

Conclusion
- hybrids are okay in nature not the hobby, we just want a bigger better looking ones,nature a better surviving one.

What evidence would you like me to post?
It is for the benefit of the hobby if I can prove that Species A is in fact a proper species and not a result of a hybrid. Anyone out there that would be happy to know that what they thought was a hybrid is on fact a true species? Of course, the species I am discussing here has been found in the wild and there is a paper currently underway describing it from what I have heard to add to my observations.
I have google, but it try not to believe everything written on there. I read once that when your spider lies on its back, it is dead. Doesn't mean its true. Or that feeding mice causes moulting problems. Doesn't mean its true.

Not sure if you would like me to reply to your points?
1. True, in fact all hybrids might be fertile for all we know when you look at the amount of hybridization in Brachypelma, Avicularia, etc. if you see the amount of albovagans or Avicularia sp. "mix-and-match" being produced, I have no doubt that hybrids are not infertile. Again, if they were, then we have nothing to worry about as they could not establish in the hobby.
2. I think that hybrids may very well occur in nature, but more often than not, the pairing would not happen due to different mating rituals, pheromones, etc. for all we know certain closely related species could have reproduced forming "new" species. There was an article regarding one of the Brachypelma's that could possibly be a natural hybrid, but can't remember which one though. Generally though, hybrids are mainly man made I believe.
3. Agree. Natural hybrids are ok with me, but I am not fond of man made hybrids as they just cause confusion amongst keepers. I think my above explanation as to why I have some is a good enough reason (For me at least) if it will help to solve a problem we have and the fact that I am not selling or even giving the spiders to anyone will make sure they are not spread into the hobby. Also, for in case the worst happens, my spiders are in my will and the person that they will be sent to is on the same page as me and understands what I am doing/trying to prove with them.
4. If I had losses from a hybrid sac I would definitely report it. It would be proof that they are weaker than normal spiders. I must be honest though, I have been keeping spiders for 20 years now and been keeping tarantulas for around 7 and I am active on a number of forums, and have never seen posts about hybrids having low successes due to deformities, etc BECAUSE they were hybrids.
5. Not sure what you are asking or saying there. Please clarify.

Conclusion. I agree, hybrids should not be spread around in the hobby. They only cause problems when people end up breeding the hybrid offspring again and could cause us to lose naturally occurring species by crossing them. I fear that with lots of Genera we are already well on the way to losing them in the hobby. That is my fear with them, not fictitious problems that occur because they are hybrids.

Hopefully that clears my stance up on the issue, but if you need me to elaborate on anything, please say. Also, please just clarify what you mean with point 5 above.

Thanks.