Hard to swallow pills for Newbies on the site

[Casey K.]

I don't know about hard to swallow but this thread was for sure a big one to swallow, lol. I love the diversity in this forum. Each and every one of us can offer valid and accurate information at some point in time. Even newbies may know at least one or many things that an advanced hobbyist may have never known. We all learn from each other. We all research and break things down in our own way so it's good for all of us to offer information as we have obtained it (hopefully after being cross referenced) from personal experience or from the experiences of others. I will say that it is important to evaluate the differences in experience from one individual to the next because if we solely relied on the information in one book verses the information obtained from a reliable source then who should we believe? Not saying that one is more right/wrong than the other but breaking things down by comparing the two and obtaining the "common" denominator so to speak may have a much better outcome when it comes to the validity of information obtained. This is just my opinion, lol. No "facts" offered from me today.....again, I am sitting from the sidelines....enjoying my popcorn....ya'll may continue, lol....

Cheers!

 

[Arachnoclown]

I’m not saying that, I’m Just saying that one shouldn’t dismiss someone with a degree, that is all. Especially when hobbyists tell new members what to believe. That’s especially egregious to me. I also doubt you’ve been keep tarantulas since you were 6 and doing a decent job of it. Plus none of you seem to do anything but provide for their basic needs. Judging from this post, the hobbyists here seem to have a limited grasp on basic animal/arachnid behavior. Overall, your argument is weak at best.

You assume alot...but you are way off. You dont now how I interact with my tarantulas...You dont even have a clue. I may lay on the floor and let all 400 of my Ts crawl all over me. Stocking my profile to come to the conclusion I was 6 when I started raising tarantulas was another assumption failure. I said nearly 40 years...that doesnt make me 6 years old.
However I was actually a great keeper...both of my first Ts lived over 18 years in my care. Your assumptions about hobbiest in this forum is way off also. Some of us Interact by holding their Ts. No one here passes judgement on them. I'd like to know what other care my Ts need besides basic care??? Please enlighten me tarantula guru. My argument is weak at best??? Never even argued with you sweet cheeks.

 

[Whitelightning777]

I would like to say that I found your aggressive and assertive language to be highly impolite. You did however inspire me to make mine less so. Here’s what I have to say about handling and the arguments made in this community. I have gotten quite a significant amount of backlash for my beliefs which I find to be concerning since everyone here should be free to have their own opinion and be deemed respectable regardless of such apparent differences. I have also heard some arguments here that don’t seem to make much sense when it comes to the rational nature of animal behavior. First, let me site my sources. I don’t simply parrot other individuals opinions unless they have some sort of professional degree and experience. Such as direct interaction with the subject at hand. Caring for simply doesn’t count in my opinion. You cannot care for a horse and say you know all about it, unless you ride it. Thus, you simply cannot say you know how a tarantula reacts to handling if you never handle them. You have to try and handle them often and observe their behaviors with a level of awareness and sensibility. One of my family members has gotten degrees in animal behavior and various life science (biology) degrees. This has proven to be quite an aid for me during this journey. Let me start out with the first argument. “Some tarantulas are too docile to defend themselves” this is going against basic common sense when it comes to animal and arachnid behavior. An organism as simplistic as a spider relies almost solely on instinct. Being too afraid to defend oneself is a human characteristic. That’s because humans pull from past experiences which shape their beliefs and behavior. Arachnids are not so. They rely on instinct. “Fight or flight” so to speak. They won’t be “too scared” to defend themselves. Second, “spiders will tolerate you holding them”. This ones evilly popular in this little community. And it’s incorrect. A spider is too simplistic to tolerate behavior. Not convinced? A dog will tolerate undesirable behavior from their human because they like them. A woman tolerates her boyfriends lack of manners because she likes him. Arachnids do not tolerate things because they either like what you are doing and or not. If an arachnid disliked you handling them, they would threat posture if they weren’t docile, or if they were in fact docile, they would run away or jump off. They wouldn’t just sit there in a state of wild fear. animals do not conceal their current mental state, again, that is a human characteristic. If an arachnid is afraid, they will curl up and back away when you try and touch them. When an arachnid is afraid, they will seek a safe place as that is their natural disposition. None can argue with the simplistic laws of nature. Third, “only rely on experienced caretakers for advice, not guide books, pet stores, or your emotions”. All three of these “unreliable” sources are actually excellent sources of knowledge one should take advantage of. All of the caretakers here mostly form their arguments off of life experience. It is important to live your life and gain experience on your own. Every arachnid is a special snowflake. No two are alike. I would recommend you learn and study your own individual arachnids behavior to learn about its preferences. About animals and arachnids having preferences, I’ll certainly address this topic further along. Do any of you know how hard it is to actually publish a book? Let alone a scientific source? How many times that draft is fact checked? Who writes books? People with degrees!! Ahhh. Yes. People who have devoted large portions of their lives to studying arachnids. And a bunch of hobbyists think they know more? That sounds slightly arrogant if I do say so myself. Also pet stores are a business. Businesses want to make money. How are they going to make money if they tell people lies about their pets? They don’t! That’s why pet stores stay in business. what a revolutionary concept! I have heard so many hobbyists and caretakers say that pet stores are uninformed. What if they gave someone bad advice and that killed their pet? Lawsuits, money loss, bad reputation. That is precisely why they fact check their advice heavily. Managers do not write the flyers, corporate does. We are all born with a special gift called intuition. This guides us when we make important decisions such as doing the right thing by our animals. If someone hear a noise outside and their dog suddenly wanted to go outside, if that person had a bad feeling inside, would you not suggest them to listen to it? Our intuition guides us whether we listen to it or not. Fifth, “spiders can’t enjoy things”. I’m sorry, what? if these hobbyists say arachnids dislike handling, can’t they like things as well? Every animal, insect, and arachnid has preferences. That’s basically their entire personality. Why is each arachnid different? It is all simply based on their preferences. Some tarantulas like to spend their time in a certain spot in their enclosure. Some tarantulas extremely dislike hands in their enclosure, and will try and bite the invader. See? It’s all a matter of preference, which is what makes these tarantulas so unique and diverse. Sixth, “tarantulas don’t sleep”. Actually, if you truly want to be technical, every organism is dormant at some period of time. Organisms cannot be active at all hours every day, so they have a period of time where they are to be dormant or inactive. This is what I mean when I causally throw around the word “nap”. My apologies for all the uproar I have caused.
I was also told by a hobbyist that it would harm my tarantula to give her heat lights, come to find out the very reason why she’s been dwelling in the hood of my sweatshirt these past 2 days. She was freezing in her enclosure. She was trying to warm herself by going to my hood. Today I am heading to the store to get equipment for her enclosure, last night she stayed in her makeshift warm-hide ( which I made for her) all night to stay warm. She hasn’t needed to be in my hood again. See? She was not stressed like hobbyists told me she was. She was freezing cold. For anyone, please form your own opinions. It will not get you anywhere in life to blindly follow others. Also, if tarantulas survived in the wild, then mine will certainly thrive in her 12by 12 enclosure. Lastly, some hold their arachnids and some do not, you should learn to be mature and respect others opinions. Also, you have never met my tarantula. I know her better than anyone else.

This is an interesting and lenghy set of observations, most of which I agree with.

The defensiveness and handling characteristics of a given tarantula obviously hinges on it's strategy.

Tarantulas that rely on urticating hairs are brightly colored. They will tend to move slowly so as to fully display the warning colors clearly and avoid triggering a predatory response by moving quickly.

The balance of hair reliance versus fight/flight behavior varies by genus and species and sometimes even between individuals of the same species.

Obviously with tarantulas that lack urticating hairs, fewer options exist. The only ones are fight or flight or a combination of both. Therefore handling these is really a bad idea. Minimal and necessary handling can be done with NWs of a docile temperament.

Generally speaking, a paintbrush, catch cup (with a properly fitted lid) & a paintbrush are your friends with any of them.

I have an unusually cold condo due to a roommate's medical issues, namely 67 to 68 degrees. After much testing prior to adding and invert, I've found that heat lamps are safe IF, they are 8" or further from the top most region or side where the tarantula can physically go, IF the bulbs are 25 watts or less, IF an Infrared thermometer is used to check for dangerous hot spots prior to introduction & if a voltage controller is used to control everything.

Should the 25 watts prove insufficient, it's best to add a second bulb, nota more powerful one or put it closer to the top of the cage.

A gentle warm area is safe. A hot spot is not.

Heat pads can also be used IF they are outside the cage, IF they are not below the tarantula, only higher or side to side & IF the substrate does not rise above the lowest areas of the heat pad.

This creates a hot side/cold side scenario whereby the behavior can be observed. Generally target temps should be in the low 80s. There's really no need to go any higher.

I should note that my newest T, a B hamorii, has her cage right under my wireless router, which creates a temp of 75 or 76 degrees, which is also good enough.

Truthfully, all this complexity can be avoided if you can simply heat your home to 75 degrees. The typical home is 70 to 72 degrees. Only if this isn't possible should you heat the cage. (Or if the spider is obviously cold)

 

[Phil]

This is an interesting and lenghy set of observations, most of which I agree with.

The defensiveness and handling characteristics ofa given tarantula obviously hinges on it's strategy.

Tarantulas that rely on urticating hairs are brightly colored. They will tend to move slowly so as to fully display the warning colors clearly and avoid triggering a predatory response by moving quickly.

The balance of hair reliance versus fight/flight behavior varies by genus and species and sometimes even between individuals of the same species.

Obviously with tarantulas that lack urticating hairs, fewer options exist. The only ones are fight or flight or a combination of both. Therefore handling these is really a bad idea. Minimal and necessary handling can be done with NWs of a docile temperament.

Generally speaking, a paintbrush, catch cup (with a properly fitted lid) & a paintbrush are your friends with any of them.

I have an unusually cold condo due to a roommate's medical issues, namely 67 to 68 degrees. After much testing prior to adding and invert, I've found that heat lamps are safe IF, they are 8" or further from the top most region or side where the tarantula can physically go, IF the bulbs are 25 watts or less, IF an Infrared thermometer is used to check for dangerous hot spots prior to introduction & if a voltage controller is used to control everything.

Should the 25 watts prove insufficient, it's best to add a second buil bulb, nota more powerful one or put it closer to the top of the cage.

A gentle warm area is safe. A hot spot is not.

Heat pads can also be used IF they are outside the cage, IF they are not below the tarantula, only higher or side to side & IF the substrate does not rise above the lowest areas of the heat pad.

This creates a hot side/cold side scenario whereby the behavior can be observed. Generally target temps should be in the low 80s. There's really no need to go any higher.

I should note that my newest T, a B hamorii, has her cage right under my wireless router, which creates a temp of 75 or 76 degrees, which is also good enough.

Truthfully, all this complexity can be avoided if you can simply heat your home to 75 degrees. The typical home is 70 to 72 degrees. Only if this isn't possible should you heat the cage. (Or if the spider is obviously cold)

very interesting thread this, glad I was tagged as someone with "knowledge" and hopefully some useful insight as it made an interesting, if not long, read for a Saturday morning over a cup of tea and a bowl of cereal.

So for other reading, I may not be a cunning linguist or a master debater (PMSL) but I try to also see the light side of life having had a very serious and life changing accident as a 13 year old. So.....,my pearl of wisdom here guys....enjoy life, enjoy doing the things you like, respect everyone and don't get too distracted by all the "noise" that surrounds life.

BTW....sorry for replying direct to @Whitelightning777, what I was going to ask was whether placing a spider above your router has affected your access to "the web" in any way?

 

[Dave Jay]

I did read all of her posts, not just in this thread, and I wonder if it's a case of her being hassled on AB and bringing the resentment here because apart from this thread where she was the instigator I see no negative replies (at the time she joined this thread, I haven't been on since to go through her content again) although there certainly could have been!

 

[PanzoN88]

I did read all of her posts, not just in this thread, and I wonder if it's a case of her being hassled on AB and bringing the resentment here because apart from this thread where she was the instigator I see no negative replies (at the time she joined this thread, I haven't been on since to go through her content again) although there certainly could have been!

I've not seen the name pop up on ab. Things have been laid back, so that can't be it.

 

[Rs50matt]

I’m not saying that, I’m Just saying that one shouldn’t dismiss someone with a degree, that is all. Especially when hobbyists tell new members what to believe. That’s especially egregious to me. I also doubt you’ve been keep tarantulas since you were 6 and doing a decent job of it. Plus none of you seem to do anything but provide for their basic needs. Judging from this post, the hobbyists here seem to have a limited grasp on basic animal/arachnid behavior. Overall, your argument is weak at best.

I'd like to add to this. Your right on a lot of things. But also a lot of things make no sense.

In my honest opinion a degree doesn't mean anything a majority of the time. It's a piece of paper that says you've passed a test. If that was taken as 100% accurate that your now an expert then their wouldn't be a single car accident because everyone knows everything about driving.

I spent my early adult life in the Royal Navy as a marine engineering submariner. I don't know how many ranking officers with degrees and certificates were onboard. They could tell you the science behind how the reactor worked. Why everything does what it does. Where it all is and not even stutter. But they had no experience doing my job and wouldn't know where to start

Even now that I'm working in construction supervisors are clueless.

So just saying to throw out someone's experience and listen only to those who have a degree is bonkers.

 

[Whitelightning777]

very interesting thread this, glad I was tagged as someone with "knowledge" and hopefully some useful insight as it made an interesting, if not long, read for a Saturday morning over a cup of tea and a bowl of cereal.

So for other reading, I may not be a cunning linguist or a master debater (PMSL) but I try to also see the light side of life having had a very serious and life changing accident as a 13 year old. So.....,my pearl of wisdom here guys....enjoy life, enjoy doing the things you like, respect everyone and don't get too distracted by all the "noise" that surrounds life.

BTW....sorry for replying direct to @Whitelightning777, what I was going to ask was whether placing a spider above your router has affected your access to "the web" in any way?

Nope, that thing is an upgrade. I can get on my home network from across the street now. Web surfing has only a minimal effect on temperature, barely a degree.

 

[Whitelightning777]

As far as complex behavior goes, & I DID re-read the original post, mine all seem much more like living robots rather then anything intelligent.

The pokies are more aware of things at a distance and obviously have better vision then any of the others. They seem more "with it", but that's just because they probably see a little better.

I can confirm that none of mine have shown any evidence whatsoever of memory or training, even related to opening the cage for feedings.

The software for these living robots seems like a cross between a cruise missile and a seismograph.

Nature does it better though.

 

[Casey K.]

I did read all of her posts, not just in this thread, and I wonder if it's a case of her being hassled on AB and bringing the resentment here because apart from this thread where she was the instigator I see no negative replies (at the time she joined this thread, I haven't been on since to go through her content again) although there certainly could have been!

Oh, if harassment has been done I would guarantee it usually starts in that forum, lol....

 

[Casey K.]

I'd like to add to this. Your right on a lot of things. But also a lot of things make no sense.

In my honest opinion a degree doesn't mean anything a majority of the time. It's a piece of paper that says you've passed a test. If that was taken as 100% accurate that your now an expert then their wouldn't be a single car accident because everyone knows everything about driving.

I spent my early adult life in the Royal Navy as a marine engineering submariner. I don't know how many ranking officers with degrees and certificates were onboard. They could tell you the science behind how the reactor worked. Why everything does what it does. Where it all is and not even stutter. But they had no experience doing my job and wouldn't know where to start

Even now that I'm working in construction supervisors are clueless.

So just saying to throw out someone's experience and listen only to those who have a degree is bonkers.

Ahhh....London, England.....idk who you are....but I like you already.....

 

[Casey K.]

DAMNIT! WE HAVE A PROBLEM!!!!


I RAN OUT OF F* POPCORN!!!

 

[Mr. P]

Guys what’s AB mean?

arachnoboards.com it's another forum.

 

[Casey K.]

Actually I was criticized here. But that’s beside the point. That’s why I responded here. I found this persons ideas to be idiotic. What is AB like?

There are wolves there. A bunch of band wagon know-it-all's. Some feel that you have to know "x" amount of this and that to have a certain "status" and if you don't have that "status" you can't be a part of their "band wagon". I have been attacked by them on several occassions but I am too much of an "alpha" for even those wolves to run me out of that forum. It's all a bunch of bogus bs. They compete with each other to see who has the most knowledge and they condemn newbies for making mistakes. There are a "few" folks left that are decent....but the lot of them are pure bred assholes.....and no, I am not afraid to tell them to their faces, lol....i tell it like it is to whomever. I have no filter so please excuse me if i seem too aggressive, lol.

 

[Casey K.]

Lol I love your attitude. I can’t keep my mouth shut so that’s why y’all hate me rn ahahah.

Nope....in that way, you are a lot like me. Don't let anyone hold you back from voicing your opinion and for damn sure don't let anyone try to pull one over on you. Opinions are like assholes....everyone has one. I don't hate you. I may not agree with anything or some things you may say but it doesn't mean I hate you. I commend you for voicing your opinion. I usually lurk in the shadows and keep to myself until someone pisses me off....i'm surprised @Enn49 hasn't banned me because of it, lol....she is cool as hell, though. I think you'll like it here. Much better place than AB.

 

[Casey K.]

Classic, beautifully said

And WELCOME to Tarantula Forum. I hope you enjoy your stay with us. We may be a community but we are all "family" first.

 

[Rs50matt]

Wrong on a lot of things? You only appeared to say I was wrong on one. Maybe that’s just me. Not trying to be annoying I’m just wondering.

I said didn't make sense. I didn't go into it all because I couldn't be bothered so I stuck to my main point.

. You cannot care for a horse and say you know all about it, unless you ride it. Thus, you simply cannot say you know how a tarantula reacts to handling if you never handle them. You have to try and handle them often and observe their behaviors with a level of awareness and sensibility.

This is one other point. Please don't make me go into more because I'm on my phone and it takes a while to narrow down the post to get the section I want .

you can know a lot about horses and not ride them. Likewise you can tell a lot about how your tarantula will react to handling without picking it up. I am 100% positive that if I put my hand in the enclosure with my N chromatus I will get bitten. I don't need to continually try and pick her up to tell you this. I've never tried to pick her up and I'm sure as hell never going to. Whereas my e campestratus is a lot calmer and would probably be possible to handle her but why do it because you can? No benefit to her and as far as I'm concerned she is safe in her enclosure and not at any risk so why take her out and risk it?

That doesn't mean I know nothing about my chromatus and I'll magically know more if I pick her up.

 

[Rs50matt]

Ahhh....London, England.....idk who you are....but I like you already.....

The reason you like me is because you don't know me

 

[Enn49]

@ethlynnn The reason most of us don't handle our Ts in that we don't want to put them in danger. How would you feel if your T is sitting in your hood and there is a sudden loud noise, a car backfiring outside, your T is startled, jumps out of your hood, falls to the floor and dies from its injuries?

 

[Casey K.]

The reason you like me is because you don't know me

Lol....mysterious...