Once and for all Communal being used

[Martin Oosthuysen]

Okay I have had about enough of people when they read communal falling of the bus and not reading clearly,I will paste the applicable definitions unless they'd like to rewrite the English dictionary. This is now happening due to the fact,that on another forum communal setup is not acceptable and gets confused as being said the species is communal which is untrue and I've said it over and over. So below,this is why I call it a communal setup.


Definition of community in English:

NOUN (plural communities)

A group of people living in the same place or having a particular characteristic in common


Definition of communal in English:

ADJECTIVE

Shared by all members of a community; for common use:a communal bathroom and kitchen

 

[Rick Stallard]

I am so glad you posted this. Some people took it way to far. It was never said the Ts were communal, but there's always someone that wants to tear a word apart. We always said it was a communal setting, setup or project. Thank you Martin.

 

[Martin Oosthuysen]

I am so glad you posted this. Some people took it way to far. It was never said the Ts were communal, but there's always someone that wants to tear a word apart. We always said it was a communal setting, setup or project. Thank you Martin.

Hello
Like I said,I was using it the way mentioned above etc. Hopefully people will now learn from this,and damn just have fun enjoying the hobby.

 

[Martin Oosthuysen]

Something that ties into this,the communal debate how it should not be used shown above is but one example of how we'd rather shoot a person down than build them up. I see many examples of people sharing, then a person steps up just to make that person look inferior and stupid. I see this a lot in our so called hobby in South Africa,that's why new people are lost and the hobby won't grow as it should.

We are supposed to groom the future ? Grooming is a tender loving action, where now we cut down forceful behaviour with not all good intentions. With years experience some become so arrogant, that it blinds them gaining joy from pushing someone down. I will reaffirm what I have said,I will not tell someone what to do but advise of an alternative. So if that person does fail his or her own endeavour,there is an alternate option.

If we for one second think we are above new members,we've lost the plot. Since this hobby is still in infancy,and no one person is always right. To give an example of the alternative to a set view,If you come with a radical opposite viewpoint even if that viewpoint is working for 1% of the hobbyists it must still be seen as an option since 99% doesn't mean that it's science and fact it's just a majority view. That 1%,will cater for some who have tried the majority and no matter how its debated is an alternative option and making the 99% not a scientific fact since that would need it to be 100%.

 

[Ceratogyrus]

Seen as this is about the "communal" topic, ill comment.
Experience tells us that in most cases (Lets call it 99%), the "communals" will fail and result in the death of a spider/s.
Surely as hobbyists, we should do everything in our power to correctly look after the spiders?
If I were to house a baboon spider with a 3m python, the chances are that at some stage the python will probably crush the spider. Probably not to eat it, but just by pure size difference and the limited space. The 2 would occasionally meet up in the wild and chances are that both would leave in one piece. Does this mean we should risk the life of the creature that we have decided to look after by housing it with a snake? Would you?
If I were to keep a P.murinus in an enclosure filled with water, chances are that the spider would probably not survive. There is a chance though that it would go to the lid of the enclosure and survive a few months without a problem. Again, in the wild, we get heavy prolonged rains at times which could result in the spider's burrow being flooded for long periods of time. Most survive without a hassle, but again, these are not optimal conditions for captivity. Would you keep a spider like this?
Basically, what I am saying is this. In the wild, these would occasionally be found in proximity with each other, but they do not naturally choose to live like this in the wild. From past experience, these should not be kept together as the majority of the time it ends in the death of the spider. Surely, by labeling ourselves as hobbyists, we endevour to give the spider the best conditions to thrive in? Keeping them with other spiders is not in the best interests of the spiders in this case.

 

[Martin Oosthuysen]

Seen as this is about the "communal" topic, ill comment.
Experience tells us that in most cases (Lets call it 99%), the "communals" will fail and result in the death of a spider/s.
Surely as hobbyists, we should do everything in our power to correctly look after the spiders?
If I were to house a baboon spider with a 3m python, the chances are that at some stage the python will probably crush the spider. Probably not to eat it, but just by pure size difference and the limited space. The 2 would occasionally meet up in the wild and chances are that both would leave in one piece. Does this mean we should risk the life of the creature that we have decided to look after by housing it with a snake? Would you?
If I were to keep a P.murinus in an enclosure filled with water, chances are that the spider would probably not survive. There is a chance though that it would go to the lid of the enclosure and survive a few months without a problem. Again, in the wild, we get heavy prolonged rains at times which could result in the spider's burrow being flooded for long periods of time. Most survive without a hassle, but again, these are not optimal conditions for captivity. Would you keep a spider like this?
Basically, what I am saying is this. In the wild, these would occasionally be found in proximity with each other, but they do not naturally choose to live like this in the wild. From past experience, these should not be kept together as the majority of the time it ends in the death of the spider. Surely, by labeling ourselves as hobbyists, we endevour to give the spider the best conditions to thrive in? Keeping them with other spiders is not in the best interests of the spiders in this case.

The actual fact of this post/Thread was not to debate a specimen being labeled communal,yet again as stated above there is an obvious difference between saying
- communal specimen or species
- communal setup
Then one could in actual fact looking at the term in English state communal species,not as an attribute but a situation created by the person who has created it.

This thread/post has been generated due to the fact,yet again evident that a term is misconstrued by a reader. I would never go against you or any other person stating that a species,in the wild or captivity is in fact communal unless I can give evidence for this. All I am saying is,give your opinion that's fine we are all allowed one, and don't misinterpret what a person says.

If giving advice,do as the word is described as. Since I've now seen numerous times,it is not advice but lashing out at an individual that accidentally not purposely states something which is not to the standard of the norm. Sometimes they make a statement from their perspective,but sadly their perspective is not allowed since the majority believes otherwise.

That type of mentality is BS,since if we believed in what the majority says or the so called experts we would still be living on a flat earth. Or just imagine the first person that said flight is possible,or we would go into space. Doesn't matter what the other person says,or how it is against the common belief give it thought see if there is any possibility for fact or truth so a benefit of the doubt.

We as hobbyists tend to attack more readily than remember we all started at the bottom,show some compassion some are passionate if they do get heated in arguments just leave it. No one is perfect,and we need to share and debate not with a view of we know everything you keep quiet. Give your view,so if that person fails to listen,he still has an option your advice to fall back on. Forcible views or advice,is never accepted well by people who themselves are new want to learn but the secret some want to learn from their own mistakes.

Accept that not all are followers,but want to lead with possible new ideas. I will finish this reply yet again for all to read,I am not saying communal species but communal setups how this impacts on the specimens dynamics is not under debate but the actual outcome of the aforementioned.

 

[Martin Oosthuysen]

The actual fact of this post/Thread was not to debate a specimen being labeled communal,yet again as stated above there is an obvious difference between saying
- communal specimen or species
- communal setup
Then one could in actual fact looking at the term in English state communal species,not as an attribute but a situation created by the person who has created it.

This thread/post has been generated due to the fact,yet again evident that a term is misconstrued by a reader. I would never go against you or any other person stating that a species,in the wild or captivity is in fact communal unless I can give evidence for this. All I am saying is,give your opinion that's fine we are all allowed one, and don't misinterpret what a person says.

If giving advice,do as the word is described as. Since I've now seen numerous times,it is not advice but lashing out at an individual that accidentally not purposely states something which is not to the standard of the norm. Sometimes they make a statement from their perspective,but sadly their perspective is not allowed since the majority believes otherwise.

That type of mentality is BS,since if we believed in what the majority says or the so called experts we would still be living on a flat earth. Or just imagine the first person that said flight is possible,or we would go into space. Doesn't matter what the other person says,or how it is against the common belief give it thought see if there is any possibility for fact or truth so a benefit of the doubt.

We as hobbyists tend to attack more readily than remember we all started at the bottom,show some compassion some are passionate if they do get heated in arguments just leave it. No one is perfect,and we need to share and debate not with a view of we know everything you keep quiet. Give your view,so if that person fails to listen,he still has an option your advice to fall back on. Forcible views or advice,is never accepted well by people who themselves are new want to learn but the secret some want to learn from their own mistakes.

Accept that not all are followers,but want to lead with possible new ideas. I will finish this reply yet again for all to read,I am not saying communal species but communal setups how this impacts on the specimens dynamics is not under debate but the actual outcome of the aforementioned.

This reply of mine is not towards any individual,but the topic in hand for all to scrutinise and draw from it.

 

[Ceratogyrus]

Ok then, would you as a responsible hobbyist knowing full well that the chances are good that the spider could needlessly lose its life,keep it in a "communal setup"?
This is not a case of "we didn't know flight was possible". This is a case of there is a huge risk to a spiders life to keep it along with other spiders.
So seen as we are working on opinions, mine is this: It is irresponsible for a person who has an animals life entrusted to them to keep it with other spiders that could kill it.

 

[Martin Oosthuysen]

Ok then, would you as a responsible hobbyist knowing full well that the chances are good that the spider could needlessly lose its life,keep it in a "communal setup"?
This is not a case of "we didn't know flight was possible". This is a case of there is a huge risk to a spiders life to keep it along with other spiders.
So seen as we are working on opinions, mine is this: It is irresponsible for a person who has an animals life entrusted to them to keep it with other spiders that could kill it.

Okay you take it from that point of view and one must respect it,as I have at this moment that has not fallen into that realm. The chances are their for this to happen, this has been said by others. As for knowingly doing this to purposely hurt an animal,I can't see someone doing that. Otherwise we would have spider fights,like I know some are doing underground in the region where I live.

That in my point of view is purposefully done,what happens when a person tries the above is not to hurt or cause injury but to try something so many others have. Saying no one shouldn't,will not change the fact they will try. I have the communal setups, should I now go and disband them even though I have had no reason to ?

You do have valid points,but lets say I met up with you at a stage when you still had your setups how would you feel if I attacked your way of doing things just because I disagreed ? I would be more willing to learn,if you gave me advice without judgement. Let's take this whole thing and use it as an example,person x - you can have a communal setup,but it has a huge chance for failure my advice any signs rather break them up to at least go and read up on these setups that have failed.

Go and look at the damage that occurred,look at the results of others. I am just a person that believes in constructive criticism or advice,not forcible or judgemental. If I get people that dislike me for that, it's fine. I like working with people sharing learning,and making it an enjoyable experience.

 

[Ceratogyrus]

Sorry, it might not end in the spiders death, but the chances are very good (looking at all the previous people that have tried it), that it will end in the spiders death at some stage. I am giving you proof from myself and many other people that have tried this, that there is a very good chance that a spider/s are going to lose their lives needlessly. And to me, that is just not fair to the spiders, and should not be to any one else who considers themselves a responsible keeper.
I used to keep them like this and once I saw the success rates of other people's communals, I disbanded mine. I learn from other people mistakes.
You want advice, and not judgement? My advice is to separate your communals before killing spiders unnecessarily.

Lets not pretend that I am the only person that has told you that this is risky. It has been said by many other people with many more years experience than me, some of them specializing in Poecilotheria, so the proof is there for you to see.

You once said something about me keeping hybrids and questioning that "how is such a person good for the hobby, what love does he have for it? I can't sit around the same table as such a person, and I WILL bump heads with him"
I feel the same way about people that purposefully put their spiders at risk from something that can easily be avoided.

So, I am not pushing my theory/advice on you. You bought the spiders and they are yours, so you can do whatever you like with them. Just don't expect people to respect you for putting their lives at risk needlessly.

 

[Martin Oosthuysen]

Sorry, it might not end in the spiders death, but the chances are very good (looking at all the previous people that have tried it), that it will end in the spiders death at some stage. I am giving you proof from myself and many other people that have tried this, that there is a very good chance that a spider/s are going to lose their lives needlessly. And to me, that is just not fair to the spiders, and should not be to any one else who considers themselves a responsible keeper.
I used to keep them like this and once I saw the success rates of other people's communals, I disbanded mine. I learn from other people mistakes.
You want advice, and not judgement? My advice is to separate your communals before killing spiders unnecessarily.

Lets not pretend that I am the only person that has told you that this is risky. It has been said by many other people with many more years experience than me, some of them specializing in Poecilotheria, so the proof is there for you to see.

You once said something about me keeping hybrids and questioning that "how is such a person good for the hobby, what love does he have for it? I can't sit around the same table as such a person, and I WILL bump heads with him"
I feel the same way about people that purposefully put their spiders at risk from something that can easily be avoided.

So, I am not pushing my theory/advice on you. You bought the spiders and they are yours, so you can do whatever you like with them. Just don't expect people to respect you for putting their lives at risk needlessly.

Okay let's be straight up here,speak straight forward since an old topic has been brought up by you not me. That is the difference between you and me,we have disagreed it went bad from both our sides. I have went past that,and feel that it shouldn't have. You have since then,not only here on many other places if I say something and someone disagrees jump in on it.

Just the fact that you've yet again mentioned it,I now fully believe it won't change and I ask that in that case we do not discuss anything unless in pvt. The topic generated,has gone from original post slamming the fact I have communal setups subtlety using insults to even bringing up old arguments.

So let's finish this as follows,the first statement applies fact no way around that. Poecilotheria aren't communal species due to general agreement, and that people are allowed a view and opinion. Also,we meaning me and you will now respect each others space.

Final note,sad we couldn't just disagree like normal hobbyists.

 

[Ceratogyrus]

I don't disagree with all your topics, only the ones that I feel I have something to add to. I actually think that you give great advice to new hobbyists, but you have serious issues with people that have been in the hobby longer than you have.. Surely giving advice to someone is what forums are about???
Where did I insult you???
The only thing that is sad here, is that arrogance will result in the death of spiders.

 

[Martin Oosthuysen]

I don't disagree with all your topics, only the ones that I feel I have something to add to. I actually think that you give great advice to new hobbyists, but you have serious issues with people that have been in the hobby longer than you have.. Surely giving advice to someone is what forums are about???
Where did I insult you???
The only thing that is sad here, is that arrogance will result in the death of spiders.

It is so easy to argue this statement,so many points to use and explain. This will sadly not help the situation,so I will do what is expected and walk away from this. You have fun,and enjoy.

 

[Rick Stallard]

Seen as this is about the "communal" topic, ill comment.
Experience tells us that in most cases (Lets call it 99%), the "communals" will fail and result in the death of a spider/s.
Surely as hobbyists, we should do everything in our power to correctly look after the spiders?
If I were to house a baboon spider with a 3m python, the chances are that at some stage the python will probably crush the spider. Probably not to eat it, but just by pure size difference and the limited space. The 2 would occasionally meet up in the wild and chances are that both would leave in one piece. Does this mean we should risk the life of the creature that we have decided to look after by housing it with a snake? Would you?
If I were to keep a P.murinus in an enclosure filled with water, chances are that the spider would probably not survive. There is a chance though that it would go to the lid of the enclosure and survive a few months without a problem. Again, in the wild, we get heavy prolonged rains at times which could result in the spider's burrow being flooded for long periods of time. Most survive without a hassle, but again, these are not optimal conditions for captivity. Would you keep a spider like this?
Basically, what I am saying is this. In the wild, these would occasionally be found in proximity with each other, but they do not naturally choose to live like this in the wild. From past experience, these should not be kept together as the majority of the time it ends in the death of the spider. Surely, by labeling ourselves as hobbyists, we endevour to give the spider the best conditions to thrive in? Keeping them with other spiders is not in the best interests of the spiders in this case.

Those are pretty extreme examples. I think I know what your getting at tho. Your 99% is to high. Actually a percentage should not be used, as there is not one that can be confirmed. And last, you forgot to mention that this is only your opinion

 

[Rick Stallard]

Sorry, it might not end in the spiders death, but the chances are very good (looking at all the previous people that have tried it), that it will end in the spiders death at some stage. I am giving you proof from myself and many other people that have tried this, that there is a very good chance that a spider/s are going to lose their lives needlessly. And to me, that is just not fair to the spiders, and should not be to any one else who considers themselves a responsible keeper.
I used to keep them like this and once I saw the success rates of other people's communals, I disbanded mine. I learn from other people mistakes.
You want advice, and not judgement? My advice is to separate your communals before killing spiders unnecessarily.

Lets not pretend that I am the only person that has told you that this is risky. It has been said by many other people with many more years experience than me, some of them specializing in Poecilotheria, so the proof is there for you to see.

You once said something about me keeping hybrids and questioning that "how is such a person good for the hobby, what love does he have for it? I can't sit around the same table as such a person, and I WILL bump heads with him"
I feel the same way about people that purposefully put their spiders at risk from something that can easily be avoided.

So, I am not pushing my theory/advice on you. You bought the spiders and they are yours, so you can do whatever you like with them. Just don't expect people to respect you for putting their lives at risk needlessly.

You say,,,
"I am giving you proof from myself and many other people that have tried this, that there is a very good chance that a spider/s are going to lose their lives needlessly." There is also "Proof" that it does work. So, please don't try to make it out like there is proof it will not work. Why would you go so low as to say people will not respect someone, just because they are doing something you don't agree with.

 

[Rick Stallard]

I don't disagree with all your topics, only the ones that I feel I have something to add to. I actually think that you give great advice to new hobbyists, but you have serious issues with people that have been in the hobby longer than you have.. Surely giving advice to someone is what forums are about???
Where did I insult you???
The only thing that is sad here, is that arrogance will result in the death of spiders.

The sad thing is, that "people that have been in the hobby longer " create their own arrogance and arrogance does not allow for change. I was going to put experience instead of "people that have been in the hobby longer" but experience does not always bring knowledge. I am not defending Martin. He is more than able to do that. His track record speaks for itself. This is all just my.....opinion.

 

[Ceratogyrus]

I have already answered all the questions, but would like to just ask a simple yes/no question to you. If you know that doing something has the very good potential to kill your spider, would you still do it?

 

[Rick Stallard]

I have already answered all the questions, but would like to just ask a simple yes/no question to you. If you know that doing something has the very good potential to kill your spider, would you still do it?

Glad to answer. Just because you "have answered all the questions", you make it sound like your answers are the only answers we should believe, Your one person with an opinion,, and thats all. The answer to your question, and we are only talking about a communal here, yes! Because I do not know that doing so will kill my spider. There is NO definitive proof of what you say. I'm following right now, atleast 3 on going communals, that at this time are going successful.

 

[Ceratogyrus]

There is plenty of proof that these turn bad, and even your buddy Martin will confirm that. If there is a risk of it happening, why do it? This really boggles my mind. Really sad that spiders have to pay for it with their lives though, but guess there is nothing I can do about it.
So carry on, let them kill each other. Suppose we have enough of these in the hobby anyway.

 

[Ceratogyrus]

Do yourself a favour and go search on arachnoboards for Poecilotheria communals. It's not just my opinion. Many have tried and many spiders have died.
But I'll stop commenting now. I have done my part as a responsible keeper to warn you of the risks. The rest is up to you to make up your mind, so good luck to you and your "communal" spiders.