MM breeding loan

[Johnnyp1987]

Im curious as to how a breeding loan usually works out for both people involved. Having recently found out that my b smithi is male it is something i would be interested in doing when he matures but im abit unsure on how it all properly works, ive read abit but the only things that seem set in stone is that you send the male to someone with a female, they pair them and send the male back with a 50/50 split of the slings. However, what happens if the male is killed, is it just accepted as natures way? Are the 50/50 splits always as honest as they sound (example, 200 slings but you get told that there was only 100 so you only receive 50, leaving the other person with the extra 100). There was a couple more things that ive forgot so ill post them when i remember [emoji5]

 

[Nicolas C]

In my own modest experience, the mature males were not sent back. I've always left them where I've sent them.

However, if you want them back, you shouldn't wait until the sack is hatched (too long a time and the male would be quite old...).

About the split of the slings, you can make an arrangement with the other part: could be 50/50, or something else (for instance if you don't have the possibility to take care of 1200 slings of L parahybana!).

The rest is all about trust: of course, the other part can lie and tell you there was only 100 slings (when 200 was the truth), but it's difficult to verify. I personally choose to trust, and nevermind if somebody gains on my ingenuity!

 

[Johnnyp1987]

Ye thats true, 1200 slings would be abit of a ball ache to care for unless you could shift them fast. I suppose you would never actually know unless you personally saw the slings rather than just take their word. Im not saying that everyone would do something like that but it probs happens in the minority, and if your dealing with an expensive T such as p metalicas the idea of losing out due to someone gaining at your expense would piss you off. Trust is all you can relay on i suppose and it would all come down to an honest agreement. Thanks for the reply, ive got awhile to go yet until my b smithi matures so ill use the time to hopefully make some contacts and sort the rest when the time comes.

 

[Nicolas C]

That's a good idea to make contacts and see how people behave. I speak about trust, but I've seen with my own eyes some very dishonest hobbyists who lied or sold a male (P metallica in the case of a friend) who was given to them without saying anything to the owner... Confident and prudent should be the best, but is hard to achieve.

With B smithi, you can expect a lot of babies to care for, even with a 50/50 agreement! But it's worth the engagement because they are beautiful and under CITES.

 

[Scoolman]

I sent a MM G pulchra out a few years ago. Was told he was killed by the female, then two weeks later the guy has a MM up for loan. When I challenged him he claims he had got another one. A week goes by and an unannounced package arrives, from him, with a mature male in it. The whole thing was very shady.
Only do loans with people who are established, they have too much to lose by being dishonest with a loan.
Let me look up my loan terms, I will post them for you to read.
Personaly I 60/40 in favor of the female. As this person has the lion's share of the work.

 

[Scoolman]

Here is what I send out to potential breeding loan partners. Again, I only deal with established, known breeders. Typically I just sell the males rather than hassel with the whole process.

Breeding Loan Terms
Updated: Feb 06, 2016

Do you ever send the female out?
Female tarantulas are generally worth more in value than males and therefore, it is not smart to ship a valuable female out on breeding loan and take a chance on a shipping accident happening. The person who has the female has the most to forfeit, as many female tarantulas can live up to 34 years or more. Mature males are generally fertile for 4-6 months and will die, usually, in less than one year after its maturing molt (depending on species). The female also needs time to acclimate in anticipation of the male's attempt to breed her. It delays the whole breeding project if you ship out the female and she has to be acclimated in a new environment/tank enclosure. For these reasons the male does the traveling.

What are the typical terms of this loan?
The keeper with the mature male pays for shipping the male to the owner of the female. The keeper of the female promises 40% of the "potential" hatch-out or offspring and pays for shipping those spiderlings to the keeper of the male. If the male survives the breeding with this female, the keeper of the male will inform the keeper of the female if the male is to be returned, forwarded to another keeper, or just left with the keeper of the female. The keeper of the female pays for shipping to return or forward the male. The breeder with the female being bred with that mature male will owe the owner of the mature male 40% of the final hatch-out (unless different terms are agreed upon). I require FedEx Overnight shipping for all shipments (and require it for the shipment of my males); the life of the tarantulas is my foremost priority. I realize we cannot control every variable during shipping but we can at least make an effort to ensure we have properly handled all of the variables we can control. USPS “Express” and “Priority” are not shipping options I will consider, and is illegal.

What guarantees are there?

1. Male arrives dead from shipping. (Owner of the male has to "eat" the loss in this case. The preserved body of the male and video footage of the dead male will be sent to the owner of the male.)
2. Male dies shortly after arriving and was never bred to the female. (Same action as above.)
3. Female dies before the male is introduced. (Owner of the female pays for shipping the male back.)
4. Male is killed in the process of mating, prior to getting any viable insertions. (Owner of the male has to "eat" the loss in this case. The preserved body of the male and video footage of the dead male will be sent to the owner of the male.)
5. The male dies in transit due to poor packaging by owner of female. Owner of female pays owner of male fair market value for male. No party is held liable for shipping delays. Proper packaging will prevent death in most cases.
6. The female produces a sac, but then eats it. (No eggs mean no “potential” hatch-out and the breeding loan agreement is null and void.)
7. The egg sac goes bad. (Same action as above.)
8. The sac is incubated, but many eggs go bad and/or a low hatch-out number happens. (A "60/40" split still applies here.
9. Spiderlings are produced and shipped to the owner of the male, but some, many or all arrive dead because of poor packaging (this will not happen). Preserved spiderlings will be sent back to the owner of the female. Owner of the female will re-ship some of the remaining spiderlings, but not pay for shipping twice. The 2nd shipment cost will be split by the two hobbyists.

What communications should I expect? Owner of the female will inform when the male arrives, when the male is introduced, if any successful mating takes place, when the female shows that she is gravid, when a sac is produced, when the spiderlings emerge from the sac, how many are there and the status/health of the male throughout. Video whenever possible is invaluable.

What agreement on pricing is made about the resulting hatch out? It is a good idea that both parties decide on an agreement (verbal or written) about how much they will sell the spiderlings for of this potentially successful breeding project. Some hobbyists that don't plan on selling their captive-born stock will not care about this and this will not apply to them, but for many others, this agreement should be worked out before the male is shipped out on loan. Recommendation is the following:

1. Research "average" market price for new-born (1st or 2nd instar) spiderlings of that species. Decide on retail and wholesale pricing. If the specie has never been for sale commercially before, take your cost of the adults and divide by four for a retail price on the spiderlings. Example: Brachypelma smithi 1st-2nd instar spiderlings currently sell for between $10-20. A good average is $15. It is up to you and the loan partner. For a rare species, challenging to breed, never or rarely seen as captive born like Pamphobeteus antinous, you have to figure, as an example, if your female costs you $125, then you should sell the spiderlings for around 1/4 of that price, $31.25 or let's say $30 each. This pricing guide isn't perfect, but gives you some idea how and what to sell your stock for. In the U.S. hobby, the following retail pricing guides apply to captive-born spiderlings in our current market (lot prices are substantially different and at the sellers discretion):
   1. $3-$12 = "Cheap or Beginner's market. Commonly imported, overly prolific or easily-produced species that "newbies" and small pet stores buy. These species also get "traded" around a lot in the hobby because there isn't a lot of demand for them and there is too much supply.
   2. $12-$25 = "Mainstream" market. Species that have a good demand and average supply. Most hobbyists buy spiderlings at this price that are beginners and intermediate keepers along with most dealers, pet stores and educators. My rule of thumb, as a breeder, is that if you are breeding a species that can sell for at least $25 retail, you can pay for your overhead in time, pill bottles, and food and shipping materials. If you are producing species that can't sell for at least $25, you are losing money and/or you must be retired, financially not dependent on your breeding activities and/or are doing it just for the fun of it.
   3. $25-$45 = Beginning of the "specialist" market. These are often new species or rarely produced in captivity, or species that have a lot of demand, but there is little supply for. Mainly for advanced keepers with some experience in keeping lots of different species and appreciate something new and different. There are fewer buyers in this market than the "mainstream" one.
   4. $45-$150+ = "Specialist" market. These are species that are extremely challenging to produce in captivity, have a very low number of eggs produced and/or are first-time offered/imported/captive-born in the market. Example: Pamphobeteus insignis or Xenesthis immanis. There is a lot of demand and little/or no supply for. Captive-born spiderlings are seen in small numbers every few years. This market is for serious collectors, advanced hobbyists and educational institutions that keep the rarest species on exhibit. Very few buyers in this market, BUT these buyers usually have the money and price doesn't limit them on what they want. World-wide, there is usually only a very few breeders that even have adults of this species in captivity to work with.
2. Agree on a price that is higher or lower than the average, and keep that price on these spiderlings for the first 60 days. After that, each party may change their price as their stock grows at different rates and then all price agreements are null and void.
3. Try not to grossly "undercut" one another on price as this devalues the species, creates bad blood between the parties and makes it not in each others interest to work together on future breeding projects. "Artificially" pricing causes a species to devalue by undercutting each other just to get your stock sold does the hobby a huge injustice as it causes hobbyists to think a species is common or not special or could be unappreciated just because its price declines or is offered cheap. It takes several years before that particular species regains its popularity and is in high demand again. *** The bottom line is don't get "greedy", have all this worked out before the loan happens and remember you want to build a reputation for success and working well to produce captive-born stock in the future, not just on this one breeding project.

What information should the owner of the female be provided with? The males maturing date, if he has been mated with any females before, his last sperm web dates if noticed and if he is currently eating well and in good health. Do NOT send out old males (maturing dates over six months +, ones that have been mating with multiple females numerous times or males that are weak, not feeding regularly or haven't made a sperm web in months.

Are record-keeping of "blood lines" important? Yes! Some studies have shown that in-breeding tarantulas can have bad results as early as the first generation. Typical problems with in-bred stock will be: fertility problems, slow growth rates, missing vivid colors and patterns, early, unexplained deaths and not growing to its normal, maximum size. Try to avoid inbreeding if at all possible.

 

[Johnnyp1987]

Thanks scoolman, that was an interesting read and very informative. I was looking at getting a female b smithi and mating her with my male, or i might just go for the breeding loan and still get myself a female [emoji2] any excuse to tell my missus i want another T haha.

 

[Kymura]

@Schoolman
that should honestly be stickied, good info especially for the newer breeders.

 

[Scoolman]

@Schoolman
that should honestly be stickied, good info especially for the newer breeders.

Thank you. I got the idea from someone else years ago.

 

[owax]

Great info. I wish all breeders in the hobby followed these principles.

 

[Scoolman]

Great info. I wish all breeders in the hobby followed these principles.

The responsible ones do.

 

[Austin S.]

Here is what I send out to potential breeding loan partners. Again, I only deal with established, known breeders. Typically I just sell the males rather than hassel with the whole process.

Breeding Loan Terms
Updated: Feb 06, 2016

Do you ever send the female out?
Female tarantulas are generally worth more in value than males and therefore, it is not smart to ship a valuable female out on breeding loan and take a chance on a shipping accident happening. The person who has the female has the most to forfeit, as many female tarantulas can live up to 34 years or more. Mature males are generally fertile for 4-6 months and will die, usually, in less than one year after its maturing molt (depending on species). The female also needs time to acclimate in anticipation of the male's attempt to breed her. It delays the whole breeding project if you ship out the female and she has to be acclimated in a new environment/tank enclosure. For these reasons the male does the traveling.

What are the typical terms of this loan?
The keeper with the mature male pays for shipping the male to the owner of the female. The keeper of the female promises 40% of the "potential" hatch-out or offspring and pays for shipping those spiderlings to the keeper of the male. If the male survives the breeding with this female, the keeper of the male will inform the keeper of the female if the male is to be returned, forwarded to another keeper, or just left with the keeper of the female. The keeper of the female pays for shipping to return or forward the male. The breeder with the female being bred with that mature male will owe the owner of the mature male 40% of the final hatch-out (unless different terms are agreed upon). I require FedEx Overnight shipping for all shipments (and require it for the shipment of my males); the life of the tarantulas is my foremost priority. I realize we cannot control every variable during shipping but we can at least make an effort to ensure we have properly handled all of the variables we can control. USPS “Express” and “Priority” are not shipping options I will consider, and is illegal.

What guarantees are there?

1. Male arrives dead from shipping. (Owner of the male has to "eat" the loss in this case. The preserved body of the male and video footage of the dead male will be sent to the owner of the male.)
2. Male dies shortly after arriving and was never bred to the female. (Same action as above.)
3. Female dies before the male is introduced. (Owner of the female pays for shipping the male back.)
4. Male is killed in the process of mating, prior to getting any viable insertions. (Owner of the male has to "eat" the loss in this case. The preserved body of the male and video footage of the dead male will be sent to the owner of the male.)
5. The male dies in transit due to poor packaging by owner of female. Owner of female pays owner of male fair market value for male. No party is held liable for shipping delays. Proper packaging will prevent death in most cases.
6. The female produces a sac, but then eats it. (No eggs mean no “potential” hatch-out and the breeding loan agreement is null and void.)
7. The egg sac goes bad. (Same action as above.)
8. The sac is incubated, but many eggs go bad and/or a low hatch-out number happens. (A "60/40" split still applies here.
9. Spiderlings are produced and shipped to the owner of the male, but some, many or all arrive dead because of poor packaging (this will not happen). Preserved spiderlings will be sent back to the owner of the female. Owner of the female will re-ship some of the remaining spiderlings, but not pay for shipping twice. The 2nd shipment cost will be split by the two hobbyists.

What communications should I expect? Owner of the female will inform when the male arrives, when the male is introduced, if any successful mating takes place, when the female shows that she is gravid, when a sac is produced, when the spiderlings emerge from the sac, how many are there and the status/health of the male throughout. Video whenever possible is invaluable.

What agreement on pricing is made about the resulting hatch out? It is a good idea that both parties decide on an agreement (verbal or written) about how much they will sell the spiderlings for of this potentially successful breeding project. Some hobbyists that don't plan on selling their captive-born stock will not care about this and this will not apply to them, but for many others, this agreement should be worked out before the male is shipped out on loan. Recommendation is the following:

1. Research "average" market price for new-born (1st or 2nd instar) spiderlings of that species. Decide on retail and wholesale pricing. If the specie has never been for sale commercially before, take your cost of the adults and divide by four for a retail price on the spiderlings. Example: Brachypelma smithi 1st-2nd instar spiderlings currently sell for between $10-20. A good average is $15. It is up to you and the loan partner. For a rare species, challenging to breed, never or rarely seen as captive born like Pamphobeteus antinous, you have to figure, as an example, if your female costs you $125, then you should sell the spiderlings for around 1/4 of that price, $31.25 or let's say $30 each. This pricing guide isn't perfect, but gives you some idea how and what to sell your stock for. In the U.S. hobby, the following retail pricing guides apply to captive-born spiderlings in our current market (lot prices are substantially different and at the sellers discretion):
   1. $3-$12 = "Cheap or Beginner's market. Commonly imported, overly prolific or easily-produced species that "newbies" and small pet stores buy. These species also get "traded" around a lot in the hobby because there isn't a lot of demand for them and there is too much supply.
   2. $12-$25 = "Mainstream" market. Species that have a good demand and average supply. Most hobbyists buy spiderlings at this price that are beginners and intermediate keepers along with most dealers, pet stores and educators. My rule of thumb, as a breeder, is that if you are breeding a species that can sell for at least $25 retail, you can pay for your overhead in time, pill bottles, and food and shipping materials. If you are producing species that can't sell for at least $25, you are losing money and/or you must be retired, financially not dependent on your breeding activities and/or are doing it just for the fun of it.
   3. $25-$45 = Beginning of the "specialist" market. These are often new species or rarely produced in captivity, or species that have a lot of demand, but there is little supply for. Mainly for advanced keepers with some experience in keeping lots of different species and appreciate something new and different. There are fewer buyers in this market than the "mainstream" one.
   4. $45-$150+ = "Specialist" market. These are species that are extremely challenging to produce in captivity, have a very low number of eggs produced and/or are first-time offered/imported/captive-born in the market. Example: Pamphobeteus insignis or Xenesthis immanis. There is a lot of demand and little/or no supply for. Captive-born spiderlings are seen in small numbers every few years. This market is for serious collectors, advanced hobbyists and educational institutions that keep the rarest species on exhibit. Very few buyers in this market, BUT these buyers usually have the money and price doesn't limit them on what they want. World-wide, there is usually only a very few breeders that even have adults of this species in captivity to work with.
2. Agree on a price that is higher or lower than the average, and keep that price on these spiderlings for the first 60 days. After that, each party may change their price as their stock grows at different rates and then all price agreements are null and void.
3. Try not to grossly "undercut" one another on price as this devalues the species, creates bad blood between the parties and makes it not in each others interest to work together on future breeding projects. "Artificially" pricing causes a species to devalue by undercutting each other just to get your stock sold does the hobby a huge injustice as it causes hobbyists to think a species is common or not special or could be unappreciated just because its price declines or is offered cheap. It takes several years before that particular species regains its popularity and is in high demand again. *** The bottom line is don't get "greedy", have all this worked out before the loan happens and remember you want to build a reputation for success and working well to produce captive-born stock in the future, not just on this one breeding project.

What information should the owner of the female be provided with? The males maturing date, if he has been mated with any females before, his last sperm web dates if noticed and if he is currently eating well and in good health. Do NOT send out old males (maturing dates over six months +, ones that have been mating with multiple females numerous times or males that are weak, not feeding regularly or haven't made a sperm web in months.

Are record-keeping of "blood lines" important? Yes! Some studies have shown that in-breeding tarantulas can have bad results as early as the first generation. Typical problems with in-bred stock will be: fertility problems, slow growth rates, missing vivid colors and patterns, early, unexplained deaths and not growing to its normal, maximum size. Try to avoid inbreeding if at all possible.

This needs to be a sticky, on every single tarantula forum out there.
Also, with your permission, would you mind if I copied and saved this into my files? So many people ask me about how loans work, that I get run down on explaining everything. Having this a click away would be tremendous.

 

[Kymura]

This needs to be a sticky, on every single tarantula forum out there.
Also, with your permission, would you mind if I copied and saved this into my files? So many people ask me about how loans work, that I get run down on explaining everything. Having this a click away would be tremendous.

totally agree, at the very least as a basis for their own.

 

[Scoolman]

This needs to be a sticky, on every single tarantula forum out there.
Also, with your permission, would you mind if I copied and saved this into my files? So many people ask me about how loans work, that I get run down on explaining everything. Having this a click away would be tremendous.

Go right ahead.

 

[MassExodus]

That's a great post by Scoolman, very good terms, and it sounds fair to me. I have a mm Lp sent by a member who almost never posts, and all he wanted was a pic of my female to verify I had a need for the spider. He asked me how it was usually done and I told him I had no idea, I had only bred my porteri, with my own male. He shipped the male next day air at his own expense, because he wanted him to breed. All he wants is five or six slings He was as excited as I was when my female molted, one week after the male made a sperm web We keep in touch by phone.My point is, sometimes a handshake is all that's necessary. Some people still have a spine

 

[Scoolman]

That's a great post by Scoolman, very good terms, and it sounds fair to me. I have a mm Lp sent by a member who almost never posts, and all he wanted was a pic of my female to verify I had a need for the spider. He asked me how it was usually done and I told him I had no idea, I had only bred my porteri, with my own male. He shipped the male next day air at his own expense, because he wanted him to breed. All he wants is five or six slings He was as excited as I was when my female molted, one week after the male made a sperm web We keep in touch by phone.My point is, sometimes a handshake is all that's necessary. Some people still have a spine

I have done quite a few deals like this. Pretty much giving the male away, maybe just a a few slings in return.

 

[MassExodus]

I have done quite a few deals like this. Pretty much giving the male away, maybe just a a few slings in return.

Fixing to do the same with a fresh mm gbb. Just gonna ask for a few P cancerides slings in trade.

 

[MassExodus]

 

[Thistles]

Fixing to do the same with a fresh mm gbb. Just gonna ask for a few P cancerides slings in trade.

Good policy with GBBs. I base my decision to trade/sell/loan on the difficulty of breeding, whether I want the species or think I can trade that many slings, and how much I trust the other party. Unless the GBB is going to someone experienced, he's best to sell or trade rather than loan and expect to get some slings. I think our new friend @Austin S. is a GBB whisperer, unless I'm thinking of someone else.

Also, @Scoolman, something similar happened to me with someone who used to be a moderator on this board. I sent a male, didn't hear from him for months, sent some messages inquiring and was told he'd been killed and the female molted. It wasn't long before guess who was posting slings for sale on forums other than the one on which we'd met.

 

[Austin S.]

Good policy with GBBs. I base my decision to trade/sell/loan on the difficulty of breeding, whether I want the species or think I can trade that many slings, and how much I trust the other party. Unless the GBB is going to someone experienced, he's best to sell or trade rather than loan and expect to get some slings. I think our new friend @Austin S. is a GBB whisperer, unless I'm thinking of someone else.

Also, @Scoolman, something similar happened to me with someone who used to be a moderator on this board. I sent a male, didn't hear from him for months, sent some messages inquiring and was told he'd been killed and the female molted. It wasn't long before guess who was posting slings for sale on forums other than the one on which we'd met.

Exactly Thistles....shhhhh...
Funny GBB breeding was just brought up, I received a male just this morning from my good buddy Raoul. So it begins again!

This time last year I was knee high with them!