Hard to swallow pills for Newbies on the site

[ArdorAphonopelma]

Noticed some newbies to the hobby but no posts addressing this so.....

• Tarantulas don't care about you, they care about eating and mating.
• Tarantulas shouldn't have tanks 10x bigger than them, it'll be hard for them to get their food.
• Tarantulas do not need exercise, don't feed them for a week and they'll lose the weight.
• Tarantulas can not be tamed.
• If you want love and affection then get one of These
• Tarantulas,like most inverts, can die for no reason.
• Take advice from experienced keepers, Care Guides,Pet stores,and Your emotions are not reliable sources.
• Just cause someone has a calm OBT(exaggeration) doesn't mean your OBT will be calm.
• Your Tarantula does not need sponges or stones in their water.
• Just because someone sells tarantulas doesn't really mean they know about them, I won't name names but I'm 100% throwing shade at someone.
• People doing cool thing with their tarantula doesn't mean the T appreciates it.
• a docile Tarantula's can't say "Hey I want to be left alone", docile tarantula's will very,very rarely throw a threat posture or hairs.
• It's okay to take funny/fun picture of your T but remember, If you don't like having a camera flash in your face all the time, don't do it to your T.

Tarantula are Ornamental Animals, not 8-legged cats, they are meant to be observed not played with.

TLDR: Tarantulas don't have emotions, A tarantula that is staying still is a tarantula that thinks it's about to get eaten. Calm ≠ Likes something.

Here's the very first picture of Nurmi.

 

[RonC]

They forgot Just because you own a tarantula doesn't mean you'll actually have one to look at.

 

[Avic]

They forgot Just because you own a tarantula doesn't mean you'll actually have one to look at.

100% right there! Lol. I have 12 T's at the moment and can see 1 of them at this moment in time (3:40am).

 

[Dave Jay]

100% right there! Lol. I have 12 T's at the moment and can see 1 of them at this moment in time (3:40am).

I've got 22 and glancing around the room I can't see any atm (5.35pm)

 

[Nunua]

They forgot Just because you own a tarantula doesn't mean you'll actually have one to look at.

But I mean... Who wouldn't want to own a glorious pet hole or pet mound!?

 

[Whitelightning777]

They forgot Just because you own a tarantula doesn't mean you'll actually have one to look at.

That depends on which one. A fossoral species, nope.

Others such as Lasiodora species, absolutely. Slings are more secretive but that changes big time with this genus.

 

[ethlynnn]

Noticed some newbies to the hobby but no posts addressing this so.....

• Tarantulas don't care about you, they care about eating and mating.
• Tarantulas shouldn't have tanks 10x bigger than them, it'll be hard for them to get their food.
• Tarantulas do not need exercise, don't feed them for a week and they'll lose the weight.
• Tarantulas can not be tamed.
• If you want love and affection then get one of These
• Tarantulas,like most inverts, can die for no reason.
• Take advice from experienced keepers, Care Guides,Pet stores,and Your emotions are not reliable sources.
• Just cause someone has a calm OBT(exaggeration) doesn't mean your OBT will be calm.
• Your Tarantula does not need sponges or stones in their water.
• Just because someone sells tarantulas doesn't really mean they know about them, I won't name names but I'm 100% throwing shade at someone.
• People doing cool thing with their tarantula doesn't mean the T appreciates it.
• a docile Tarantula's can't say "Hey I want to be left alone", docile tarantula's will very,very rarely throw a threat posture or hairs.
• It's okay to take funny/fun picture of your T but remember, If you don't like having a camera flash in your face all the time, don't do it to your T.

Tarantula are Ornamental Animals, not 8-legged cats, they are meant to be observed not played with.

TLDR: Tarantulas don't have emotions, A tarantula that is staying still is a tarantula that thinks it's about to get eaten. Calm ≠ Likes something.

Here's the very first picture of Nurmi.View attachment 33546

I would like to say that I found your aggressive and assertive language to be highly impolite. You did however inspire me to make mine less so. Here’s what I have to say about handling and the arguments made in this community. I have gotten quite a significant amount of backlash for my beliefs which I find to be concerning since everyone here should be free to have their own opinion and be deemed respectable regardless of such apparent differences. I have also heard some arguments here that don’t seem to make much sense when it comes to the rational nature of animal behavior. First, let me site my sources. I don’t simply parrot other individuals opinions unless they have some sort of professional degree and experience. Such as direct interaction with the subject at hand. Caring for simply doesn’t count in my opinion. You cannot care for a horse and say you know all about it, unless you ride it. Thus, you simply cannot say you know how a tarantula reacts to handling if you never handle them. You have to try and handle them often and observe their behaviors with a level of awareness and sensibility. One of my family members has gotten degrees in animal behavior and various life science (biology) degrees. This has proven to be quite an aid for me during this journey. Let me start out with the first argument. “Some tarantulas are too docile to defend themselves” this is going against basic common sense when it comes to animal and arachnid behavior. An organism as simplistic as a spider relies almost solely on instinct. Being too afraid to defend oneself is a human characteristic. That’s because humans pull from past experiences which shape their beliefs and behavior. Arachnids are not so. They rely on instinct. “Fight or flight” so to speak. They won’t be “too scared” to defend themselves. Second, “spiders will tolerate you holding them”. This ones evilly popular in this little community. And it’s incorrect. A spider is too simplistic to tolerate behavior. Not convinced? A dog will tolerate undesirable behavior from their human because they like them. A woman tolerates her boyfriends lack of manners because she likes him. Arachnids do not tolerate things because they either like what you are doing and or not. If an arachnid disliked you handling them, they would threat posture if they weren’t docile, or if they were in fact docile, they would run away or jump off. They wouldn’t just sit there in a state of wild fear. animals do not conceal their current mental state, again, that is a human characteristic. If an arachnid is afraid, they will curl up and back away when you try and touch them. When an arachnid is afraid, they will seek a safe place as that is their natural disposition. None can argue with the simplistic laws of nature. Third, “only rely on experienced caretakers for advice, not guide books, pet stores, or your emotions”. All three of these “unreliable” sources are actually excellent sources of knowledge one should take advantage of. All of the caretakers here mostly form their arguments off of life experience. It is important to live your life and gain experience on your own. Every arachnid is a special snowflake. No two are alike. I would recommend you learn and study your own individual arachnids behavior to learn about its preferences. About animals and arachnids having preferences, I’ll certainly address this topic further along. Do any of you know how hard it is to actually publish a book? Let alone a scientific source? How many times that draft is fact checked? Who writes books? People with degrees!! Ahhh. Yes. People who have devoted large portions of their lives to studying arachnids. And a bunch of hobbyists think they know more? That sounds slightly arrogant if I do say so myself. Also pet stores are a business. Businesses want to make money. How are they going to make money if they tell people lies about their pets? They don’t! That’s why pet stores stay in business. what a revolutionary concept! I have heard so many hobbyists and caretakers say that pet stores are uninformed. What if they gave someone bad advice and that killed their pet? Lawsuits, money loss, bad reputation. That is precisely why they fact check their advice heavily. Managers do not write the flyers, corporate does. We are all born with a special gift called intuition. This guides us when we make important decisions such as doing the right thing by our animals. If someone hear a noise outside and their dog suddenly wanted to go outside, if that person had a bad feeling inside, would you not suggest them to listen to it? Our intuition guides us whether we listen to it or not. Fifth, “spiders can’t enjoy things”. I’m sorry, what? if these hobbyists say arachnids dislike handling, can’t they like things as well? Every animal, insect, and arachnid has preferences. That’s basically their entire personality. Why is each arachnid different? It is all simply based on their preferences. Some tarantulas like to spend their time in a certain spot in their enclosure. Some tarantulas extremely dislike hands in their enclosure, and will try and bite the invader. See? It’s all a matter of preference, which is what makes these tarantulas so unique and diverse. Sixth, “tarantulas don’t sleep”. Actually, if you truly want to be technical, every organism is dormant at some period of time. Organisms cannot be active at all hours every day, so they have a period of time where they are to be dormant or inactive. This is what I mean when I causally throw around the word “nap”. My apologies for all the uproar I have caused.
I was also told by a hobbyist that it would harm my tarantula to give her heat lights, come to find out the very reason why she’s been dwelling in the hood of my sweatshirt these past 2 days. She was freezing in her enclosure. She was trying to warm herself by going to my hood. Today I am heading to the store to get equipment for her enclosure, last night she stayed in her makeshift warm-hide ( which I made for her) all night to stay warm. She hasn’t needed to be in my hood again. See? She was not stressed like hobbyists told me she was. She was freezing cold. For anyone, please form your own opinions. It will not get you anywhere in life to blindly follow others. Also, if tarantulas survived in the wild, then mine will certainly thrive in her 12by 12 enclosure. Lastly, some hold their arachnids and some do not, you should learn to be mature and respect others opinions. Also, you have never met my tarantula. I know her better than anyone else.

 

[ArdorAphonopelma]

I would like to say that I found your aggressive and assertive language to be highly impolite. You did however inspire me to make mine less so. Here’s what I have to say about handling and the arguments made in this community. I have gotten quite a significant amount of backlash for my beliefs which I find to be concerning since everyone here should be free to have their own opinion and be deemed respectable regardless of such apparent differences. I have also heard some arguments here that don’t seem to make much sense when it comes to the rational nature of animal behavior. First, let me site my sources. I don’t simply parrot other individuals opinions unless they have some sort of professional degree and experience. Such as direct interaction with the subject at hand. Caring for simply doesn’t count in my opinion. You cannot care for a horse and say you know all about it, unless you ride it. Thus, you simply cannot say you know how a tarantula reacts to handling if you never handle them. You have to try and handle them often and observe their behaviors with a level of awareness and sensibility. One of my family members has gotten degrees in animal behavior and various life science (biology) degrees. This has proven to be quite an aid for me during this journey. Let me start out with the first argument. “Some tarantulas are too docile to defend themselves” this is going against basic common sense when it comes to animal and arachnid behavior. An organism as simplistic as a spider relies almost solely on instinct. Being too afraid to defend oneself is a human characteristic. That’s because humans pull from past experiences which shape their beliefs and behavior. Arachnids are not so. They rely on instinct. “Fight or flight” so to speak. They won’t be “too scared” to defend themselves. Second, “spiders will tolerate you holding them”. This ones evilly popular in this little community. And it’s incorrect. A spider is too simplistic to tolerate behavior. Not convinced? A dog will tolerate undesirable behavior from their human because they like them. A woman tolerates her boyfriends lack of manners because she likes him. Arachnids do not tolerate things because they either like what you are doing and or not. If an arachnid disliked you handling them, they would threat posture if they weren’t docile, or if they were in fact docile, they would run away or jump off. They wouldn’t just sit there in a state of wild fear. animals do not conceal their current mental state, again, that is a human characteristic. If an arachnid is afraid, they will curl up and back away when you try and touch them. When an arachnid is afraid, they will seek a safe place as that is their natural disposition. None can argue with the simplistic laws of nature. Third, “only rely on experienced caretakers for advice, not guide books, pet stores, or your emotions”. All three of these “unreliable” sources are actually excellent sources of knowledge one should take advantage of. All of the caretakers here mostly form their arguments off of life experience. It is important to live your life and gain experience on your own. Every arachnid is a special snowflake. No two are alike. I would recommend you learn and study your own individual arachnids behavior to learn about its preferences. About animals and arachnids having preferences, I’ll certainly address this topic further along. Do any of you know how hard it is to actually publish a book? Let alone a scientific source? How many times that draft is fact checked? Who writes books? People with degrees!! Ahhh. Yes. People who have devoted large portions of their lives to studying arachnids. And a bunch of hobbyists think they know more? That sounds slightly arrogant if I do say so myself. Also pet stores are a business. Businesses want to make money. How are they going to make money if they tell people lies about their pets? They don’t! That’s why pet stores stay in business. what a revolutionary concept! I have heard so many hobbyists and caretakers say that pet stores are uninformed. What if they gave someone bad advice and that killed their pet? Lawsuits, money loss, bad reputation. That is precisely why they fact check their advice heavily. Managers do not write the flyers, corporate does. We are all born with a special gift called intuition. This guides us when we make important decisions such as doing the right thing by our animals. If someone hear a noise outside and their dog suddenly wanted to go outside, if that person had a bad feeling inside, would you not suggest them to listen to it? Our intuition guides us whether we listen to it or not. Fifth, “spiders can’t enjoy things”. I’m sorry, what? if these hobbyists say arachnids dislike handling, can’t they like things as well? Every animal, insect, and arachnid has preferences. That’s basically their entire personality. Why is each arachnid different? It is all simply based on their preferences. Some tarantulas like to spend their time in a certain spot in their enclosure. Some tarantulas extremely dislike hands in their enclosure, and will try and bite the invader. See? It’s all a matter of preference, which is what makes these tarantulas so unique and diverse. Sixth, “tarantulas don’t sleep”. Actually, if you truly want to be technical, every organism is dormant at some period of time. Organisms cannot be active at all hours every day, so they have a period of time where they are to be dormant or inactive. This is what I mean when I causally throw around the word “nap”. My apologies for all the uproar I have caused.
I was also told by a hobbyist that it would harm my tarantula to give her heat lights, come to find out the very reason why she’s been dwelling in the hood of my sweatshirt these past 2 days. She was freezing in her enclosure. She was trying to warm herself by going to my hood. Today I am heading to the store to get equipment for her enclosure, last night she stayed in her makeshift warm-hide ( which I made for her) all night to stay warm. She hasn’t needed to be in my hood again. See? She was not stressed like hobbyists told me she was. She was freezing cold. For anyone, please form your own opinions. It will not get you anywhere in life to blindly follow others. Also, if tarantulas survived in the wild, then mine will certainly thrive in her 12by 12 enclosure. Lastly, some hold their arachnids and some do not, you should learn to be mature and respect others opinions. Also, you have never met my tarantula. I know her better than anyone else.

I could have a law degree but that doesn't mean I'm a good lawyer, researchers rely on long time tarantula keepers for research, Also you said that I should respect others opinions yet you clearly don't respect mine as my post wasn't opinion based.

 

[ethlynnn]

I could have a law degree but that doesn't mean I'm a good lawyer, researchers rely on long time tarantula keepers for research, Also you said that I should respect others opinions yet you clearly don't respect mine as my post wasn't opinion based.

You obviously didn’t read. Your post is opinionated. And I explained to you why it wasn’t logical. Law degrees are common and not applicable to arachnids unfortunately. I respect your opinion, I just wanted to have a discussion. You act like your personal experiences and beliefs are gospel. That is wrong. And you are telling people they must believe you “hard pill to swallow”. It’s misleading. I know I wrote a lot, but if you want to respond, you should consider reading.

 

[Enn49]

I have learnt from many years experience that no matter how much book learning a person has there is nothing better than experience and that actually applies to all walks of life not just pet keeping..

 

[Arachnoclown]

Well I've only been keeping of tarantulas for nearly 40 years and I dont have a degree. I guess I should stop helping people...

 

[Enn49]

The problem is that most books and care sheets are many years out of date, even The Tarantula Keepers Guide is out of date so I'd rather take advice from people like @Arachnoclown

 

[Whitelightning777]

The best questioning goes like this.

What exact species (or genus member) do I have?

Who else had kept this very same one without disaster?

How did they do that?

& then move on from there.

 

[Nunua]

I assure you that pet stores care guides are not out of date. I have one that I obtained when I purchased Hershey. It is perfectly up to date. That would be illegal if they were out of date and there would be money loss.

Pet store care sheets are something I won't trust. Many pet stores have very limited knowledge of arachnids, and I've seen several stores with tarantulas in wrong enclosures - Terrestrials in tall enclosure with arboreal setup and vice versa, way too damp enclosure with decomposing feeders etc. around. The educational part of exotic pet care for shopkeepers and animal attendants is very small - It's mostly about bunnies, rats, dogs, fish etc. more common.

I'm sorry to see how offended you are about several posts here with no particular reason. The only reason so far seems to be that you have decided that every single post about newbie mistakes etc. are pointed directly at you. After all, this is one of the most positive tarantula forums out there.

"Plus none of you seem to do anything but provide for their basic needs."
Yes, because arachnids are trophy animals after all. They're not for cuddling and petting. Several hobbyists do handle their tarantulas, yes, but I highly doubt it brings any extra joy for the animal. Never seen such scientific article, and I'm pretty sure that I will never see one.

It's also potentially dangerous to humanize pets - No matter what.

Anyway, that's all from me - Everyone does their own decisions.

 

[Enn49]

Sadly it's beginning to sound as though @ethlynnn is one of those people they are purporting to dislike, the ones that won't listen to experience.

 

[Dave Jay]

Now I had written this about 12 noon, but didn't finish, it is now 3am and I was just checking the forums before bed. The following paragraph was written a few comments into this thread so I'll just leave it as it was then but I really have to say ethlynn, I have read all your posts fully, including the one where you say your tarantula LOVES meeting new people and LOVES to be handled, now you're saying others are humanising tarantulas?? ??. I have no interest in joining an argument at 3 am, so having said that I'll just post what I had written on the subject of reliable sources.

The problem with books and caresheets is that they can become outdated. Even new books , particularly the lightweight "enjoy your. .." "Your first..." types can contain outdated information due to the source material. To say all books and caressheets are not reliable sources of information is wrong though , some are excellent, well researched and contain a wealth of information.
The same with pet shops, some owners are passionate about animal husbandry and have years of personal experience to complement their research, some really have no idea and perpetuate outdated ideas and myths. I've kept birds and tropical fish for 38 years as well as many other animals and have never stopped researching and you have no idea how many times I've had to bite my tongue because the staff are giving out wrong information. Go and buy a new aquarium and see if they explain the nitrogen cycle and recommend that you come back in 6 weeks or so to buy your fish to give time for the beneficial bacteria to establish, they won't because you'll just buy fish down the road. The most ethical of them will explain, give you an established filter sponge and sell you fish then and there, that's about as good as it gets. Petshops here still keep Australian scorpions like they are American species because that's what they read in a book or online, few have the time or enthusiasm to research properly. Some are excellent though.
Your information should come from as many sources as possible, it's up to you to sift through it. Before the Internet I would read about a species in say 10 books and tentatively accept the common consensus, the Internet has made it harder in some ways, there's lots of sources but so many just repeating what was written on another site , down to where it's obvious most have just copied and pasted the information, the exact wording on site after site. Keepers/hobbyists on forums/groups are prone to this too. Experienced keepers are great sources of information , but they relate their experiences, another may have experienced things differently and neither may reflect your experience, they're not wrong, but you need to sift through all of the information and advice yourself and try what you think is right for your circumstances even if it's not exactly what someone told you to do.
Animal husbandry advances constantly, methods are proved wrong, methods are superseded, all through research and experimentation.

 

[WolfSpider]

Not sure where this hostility is from. @ethlynnn , I bet you’ll never find overall a tarantula group as positive and tolerent as this one. @Enn49 is a model of class and a nice and helpful moderator. @Arachnoclown, @Casey K., @Phil, @PanzoN88, @Thistles, @KezyGLA and too many others to list are a treasure trove of knowledge. AND, every single one is EAGER to give it away. Can our community be a bit crass? Yes....But, there is absolutely no harm in our folly.

Every single one of us was once a “newbie”. I was one 3 years ago....and in many ways—still am. Because of TF, I have learned a lot, continue to learn, and I absolutely treasure the kindness, communicativeness, and the respect that this community has for our favorite pets.

I am saddened that ethylynnn doesn’t seem to share this experience.

 

[Nunua]

READ THE ORIGINAL POST PEOPLE. If you don’t, you will just end up embarrassing yourself.

How matter how much you say that people should never assume things, you do it yourself all the time. Believe or not, I did read the original post, and I must say that it was extremely heavy thing to read as it was just a wall of text.

Yes, you got ok points about tarantulas not having behavioral characteristics of dogs, humans, or other more complex animals, but then again it was more of a frustrated rant and seemed like that you took the whole first post as a mental gunfight. I didn't feel like sitting down and answering in a long way as you seem to have your defenses high up, and it'd be just waste of my time to see how you answer in an aggressive, arrogant or absolutely irrespective way just because I don't have a degree in animal sciences and I don't handle my tarantulas... Anyway, here I go. After that I will not pay more attention to this storm.

- No one has given you a significant amount of backlash. It's all about how you react the information given.

"I don't simply parrot other individuals opinions unless they have some sort of professional degree and experience"
- One should never blindly trust a person, not even one with an acceptable degree.

"You have to try and handle them often and observe their behaviors with a level of awareness and sensibility."
- Why would I do that. As far as the studies show, tarantulas are far less complex animal compared to for example mammals. They do not understand the concept of handling, so guiding them onto your hand is nothing but a disturbance for them. If the tarantula just casually walks on your when the enclosure is opened, then it's just doing it's thing, but touching their back legs to make them to move, or scooping them out from their enclosures are completely unnecessary for them.

"One of my family members has gotten degrees....."
- I apologize, but this is an extremely immature argument. It may have been extremely helpful on your journey, but even his/her knowledge is not the absolute truth and word. It also makes me a bit doubtful that you keep telling how she/he has several degrees on pretty much every single field of expertise regarding this subject.

"A spider is too simplistic to tolerate behavior"
- Yes, tarantula probably does not tolerate in the behavior wise, but they do tolerate in the terms of biology and ecology.

I do agree with you that it's not maybe the best way to say that a tarantula is too docile to defend itself. After all, even curling up is a defend mechanism.

"I would recommend you learn and study your own individual arachnids behavior"
- Yes, I do agree. If you care to read any other posts on this forum, you'd see that every single one is encouraged to see how their tarantula(s) behave. Anyway, this does not eliminate the fact that tarantulas do not need hugs and affection from humans.

"It's important to live your life and gain experience on your own."
- Yes. Though, despite this argument you keep acting in a way which radiates the attitude about how several members with years and years of experience in tarantula keeping have weak opinions, wrong beliefs, and how they're not capable to advise people just because they're providing tarantulas their basic needs and do not have a degree in animal sciences.

About how you disagree with the "Care Guides,Pet stores,and Your emotions are not reliable sources" - Well, you clearly want to stay blind for the main point. Experienced keepers usually have the most current knowledge. Everything written gets outdated very fast, no matter how amazing and knowledgeable the author is.

I already mentioned what I think about pet stores.

"if these hobbyists say arachnids dislike handling...."
- Like you already showed, the diversity of "liking" and "disliking" things is a never ending story. The usual meaning of tarantulas disliking the handling relies on about what I said about touching a tarantula being a disturbance for them, but also the fact that tarantula setae seems to be extremely sensitive organ. If you think about nerve impulses, pumping blood, oil on the skin, breathing etc. you could imagine how many unnecessary sensations a tarantula gets when being handled. Yes, they can live with them and they're not harmful but as you mentioned how tarantulas rely on their instincts,
having these sensations is most likely overwhelming as tarantulas are basically just a clump of nerves.

"I was also told by a hobbyist that it would harm my tarantula to give her heat lights."
- I haven't seen the post, so I can't say if the formatting was "may", "would" or "could", but it is potentially harmful if not done right. Your Avic does not have deep substrate bed, so it can not dig a tunnel if the heat makes it uncomfortable. #Edit: Also, you're having an arboreal species so its natural behavior is not to dig underground to escape the heat. Web tunnels between the leaves, brances and holes in the tree are their way to go - Therefore it needs an enclosure that imitates its natural habitat so it can go with the instincts what comes to hiding, hunting and regulating her life. There are several cases among the hobbyists, where a tarantula has died on dehydration after a careless use of a heat lamp or mat.

"She was freezing cold"
- Tarantulas have temperature preferences but as they are ectothermic, simplistic animals they don't feel cold as we do. When the body temperature goes down, it affects on their hormonal cycles, metabolism etc. by slowing them down. Though, it is true that tarantulas are dependent on environment determining in the matter of thermoregulation, but it also works other way round - See my comment about heat lights. If you say that your Avic was hiding in your hood only because it had to do it for surviving, I'd be extremely concerned as a keeper. This means that you should be extremely uncomfortable living in there as well, as humans have a very narrow comfort and survival zones what comes to the temperatures, compared to arachnids.

"You should learn to be mature and respect others opinions"
- This is true, but it's the same with you as well. Writing a long wall of text, implying that no one reads it, and pretty much reject everyone without a degree in animal sciences with an attitude of "I know the best because my family member!" is far from mature behavior.

 

[Nunua]

She was however, cold. It’s 28 degrees here.

Well, I have 23.1 °C (73.5 °F) in my apartment and -5 °C (23 °F) outside at the moment and my Ts are doing fine in the terms of molting and eating regularly. They're just sitting where ever they want, so no signs of escaping the cold. They are by nature tolerable animals what comes to temperatures

There is nothing wrong with debating and questioning but if one requires and asks mature behavior from the other party, the one needs to behave like that as well. I know that the frustration can easily kick in, but those are the moments when one should stop writing for a moment and think everything through once again.

I'm sure there is no hard feelings between anyone at the moment so lets just sit down, relax and enjoy the 8-legged pets we all tend to love.

 

[Casey K.]

(......lurking from the side lines while "quietly" eating popcorn and enjoying the show)