Conservation the good,the bad and the ugly

[Martin Oosthuysen]

Hello everyone

I think this is something that everyone could have discussed or wondered about at some stage, so I am going to open this up for discussion . I want to see peoples views,also input. Conservation is a must, either the specie or its habitat being preserved. I'm not an employed conservationist, but I do support it. What I'd like to know is with the methods or views,is it having a good and bad effect ?
- banning of export of certain animals
- only allowing certain amount of permits(if any)
- not allowing captive breeding programs
I will list more as this goes on,its just a discussion so I could have made errors and I'm open for corrections. Since the above doesn't make sense,when it comes to deforestation(human development), or indigenous people themselves killing these animals in question or even consuming them. Also,wouldn't it be in favor of conservation being more proactive with education at school level ? Like I've said,I'm just starting a topic which could enlighten me. I feel as a huge hobby,we could help conservation with levels of animals that are either on the point of extinction or close to. Please feel free to join in !!!

After posting I will try and summarize what you've posted,please reply after to state if its acceptable and if not so I can edit it.

 

[entomology]

Ok finally someone who speaks my language and in my field of work I do everyday!!! Whoop whoop!!
Ok one of the main concerns nature conservation have to deal with on a daily basis is the following:
Invasive species
Alien species becoming apex predators
All illegal smuggling into the country
Tropical diseases being the biggest concern.
Conservation need a "firm" grip on population dynamics in terms of what is in each province to prevent allot of issues escalating. red eared terrapins must be euthanized because people think they cute when small, but when the animal grows to big for it's tank they just release in the closest dam or river and this becomes a competitor and invasive species. That is just an example as to what is happening. I am faced each day with danger and all conservation in the field now focused on Rhinos as we are going to lose them to extinction within the next 3 to 4 years. if it were not for conservation and it's Fundamental laws what do you think would happen?? Ppl smuggle in critically endangered species under cites etc and when u push nature conservation too far , you will feel their wrath!!!!!! This was a long time coming as people cannot just do as they please as someone needs to look out for the species in questions well being.

 

[Martin Oosthuysen]

Ok finally someone who speaks my language and in my field of work I do everyday!!! Whoop whoop!!
Ok one of the main concerns nature conservation have to deal with on a daily basis is the following:
Invasive species
Alien species becoming apex predators
All illegal smuggling into the country
Tropical diseases being the biggest concern.
Conservation need a "firm" grip on population dynamics in terms of what is in each province to prevent allot of issues escalating. red eared terrapins must be euthanized because people think they cute when small, but when the animal grows to big for it's tank they just release in the closest dam or river and this becomes a competitor and invasive species. That is just an example as to what is happening. I am faced each day with danger and all conservation in the field now focused on Rhinos as we are going to lose them to extinction within the next 3 to 4 years. if it were not for conservation and it's Fundamental laws what do you think would happen?? Ppl smuggle in critically endangered species under cites etc and when u push nature conservation too far , you will feel their wrath!!!!!! This was a long time coming as people cannot just do as they please as someone needs to look out for the species in questions well being.

Thank you for your reply on this topic,so to summarize your view may I say the following ?
- conservation is a must
- illegal import or export impacts the biodiversity
- captive alien species are being released due to incompetence of hobbyists
- also bringing in possible diseases
Now I have to ask, when it comes to endangered animals all over the world. Can't we as a hobby assist by reintroducing specimens,obtaining a license to breed say exclusively for the pet trade or reintroduction purposes ? Sorry that I'm asking so many questions,but as a discussion I'm looking at all sides. Let me add, this is not just for South Africa its in general all over the world. Its nice to see how people perceive things differently, hope to see more views.

 

[Martin Oosthuysen]

Here we need both sides,how can we start becoming more active and change the perception of conservation departments that they might have of the hobby. So please input both ways, its all about working together, we all love these animals.

 

[entomology]

No there is no such thing as a "stupid " question chap!! The reason they are endangered is because of deforestation, loss of habitat, human impact hence by breeding endangered in captivity will prevent them from extinction, but can never be releases into the same are of habitat it originates from as it will face the same fate. Because we are experiencing the " bottle" neck effect due to inbreeding where numbers are low conservation are doing extensive DNA analysis to prevent such atrocious acts commuted by certain people. Inbreeding within a " population" have very negative and bad traits as follows below:
Weak immune system
Low fertility
Infertile
Deformity in mandibles
Deformities on other places
Subjected to high mortality numbers

 

[Ceratogyrus]

In South Africa I think that our laws are correct in certain areas and a bit off the mark on others.
Regarding the importation of exotics, I think the law is fair. Until someone has proven that the specific species is not invasive, there should be no importation allowed. Hobbyists should have to prove that they are not invasive first, and then importation permits should be allowed. As these exotics could impact on our local spiders, I think the benefit of the doubt should go to our locals.
In regards to locals, I feel there should be captive breeding allowed to a select few people that could provide local baboon spiders to South Africans and after that be allowed to flood the overseas market. This would stop illegal collecting or at least drop the demand.
The majority of SA species are not threatened anyway, so the collection of limited numbers of wild stock to the breeders would not harm the population.

 

[Martin Oosthuysen]

No there is no such thing as a "stupid " question chap!! The reason they are endangered is because of deforestation, loss of habitat, human impact hence by breeding endangered in captivity will prevent them from extinction, but can never be releases into the same are of habitat it originates from as it will face the same fate. Because we are experiencing the " bottle" neck effect due to inbreeding where numbers are low conservation are doing extensive DNA analysis to prevent such atrocious acts commuted by certain people. Inbreeding within a " population" have very negative and bad traits as follows below:
Weak immune system
Low fertility
Infertile
Deformity in mandibles
Deformities on other places
Subjected to high mortality numbers

Thank you for the reply, so to summarize
- captive breeding could help,but is negated by reintroduction into the same fate as the wild specimens
- incorrect breeding protocols do more harm than good.
- more studies need to be done,before there's a light at the end of the tunnel
Now I have to put this forward, wouldn't it then be positive when looking at captive breeding projects to subject the willing people to submit specimens for analyses to see of they are viable ? Also being monitored not only by conservation departments,but forming a type of controlling body within the hobby itself ?

 

[Ceratogyrus]

Releasing captive bred spiders can unfortunately not be allowed in SA. Other than the spiders running into the same problem that endangered them in the first place, population dynamics will have to be taken into account. Also the possibility of releasing hybrid species or variations of the same species into an area where they are not found would be a major problem. Having a bunch of hybrids interbreeding with pure species would be catastrophic.

 

[Martin Oosthuysen]

In South Africa I think that our laws are correct in certain areas and a bit off the mark on others.
Regarding the importation of exotics, I think the law is fair. Until someone has proven that the specific species is not invasive, there should be no importation allowed. Hobbyists should have to prove that they are not invasive first, and then importation permits should be allowed. As these exotics could impact on our local spiders, I think the benefit of the doubt should go to our locals.
In regards to locals, I feel there should be captive breeding allowed to a select few people that could provide local baboon spiders to South Africans and after that be allowed to flood the overseas market. This would stop illegal collecting or at least drop the demand.
The majority of SA species are not threatened anyway, so the collection of limited numbers of wild stock to the breeders would not harm the population.

Thank you for your reply,so of I may summarize as follows.
- imports should be monitored more strictly
- local specimens should be allowed to be bred by people(limited)
- causing the available specimens to increase
On the point of imports of exotics an so on, wouldn't it benefit the hobby to have a governing body ? Like with any type of pet we see,like dog associations etc.

 

[Ceratogyrus]

No governing body will work in SA. Too many politics.

 

[Martin Oosthuysen]

Releasing captive bred spiders can unfortunately not be allowed in SA. Other than the spiders running into the same problem that endangered them in the first place, population dynamics will have to be taken into account. Also the possibility of releasing hybrid species or variations of the same species into an area where they are not found would be a major problem. Having a bunch of hybrids interbreeding with pure species would be catastrophic.

Okay summarizing.
- danger if these specimens are allowed to be released
- hybrid impact
- population studies would be needed
Now I have to ask,is this say with local specimens being bred for reintroduction ?

 

[Martin Oosthuysen]

No governing body will work in SA. Too many politics.

Summary
- not a feasible idea
If I may ask, and you don't need to reply on this. Nor do you have to be specific at all,but why not ? Is there no way for it to be even remotely possible,since I could see this as a step forward. Shouldn't we all as hobbyists set our differences aside,If we truly love the animals ? If a person,or persons wish not to be apart of it that's their loss. Also with a governing body,you could keep records of peoples specimens etc. Also in turn generate funds for studies and so much more,o think its an attitude adjustment we might have to look at.

 

[entomology]

Captive species of any source now cannot just be released as an environmental impact assessment needs to be done also rehabilitation depending on different species as their behavior is different and dnt fear "man". I don't condone to breeding local captive species to " flood "the overseas market as it will only demand a greater supply causing poaching on a larger scale due to the fact they are native to our country. I'm gonna give you another example : let's say u release an exotic species with the market flooded and there is no money or revenue for that species what people then do is just release into a foreign habitat not suitable for them, but because tarantulas have the ability to adapt fast it can have a massive impact. All over the world you will get exotics and all what needs to be done is numbers to be watched and monitored that's what it boils down too so we can have the " full" picture of who has what. Yes hybrids are also a concern if released into the " wild" as they are not studied and are not supposed to exist , but because if "mans" ignorance and stupidity these things happen and conservation have to deal with the issue at the end if the day.

 

[Ceratogyrus]

Summary
- not a feasible idea
If I may ask, and you don't need to reply on this. Nor do you have to be specific at all,but why not ? Is there no way for it to be even remotely possible,since I could see this as a step forward. Shouldn't we all as hobbyists set our differences aside,If we truly love the animals ? If a person,or persons wish not to be apart of it that's their loss. Also with a governing body,you could keep records of peoples specimens etc. Also in turn generate funds for studies and so much more,o think its an attitude adjustment we might have to look at.

It's been tried and won't work.
In my opinion the egos are too big in the hobby and with previous issues amongst people, getting everyone to agree would be a problem.
There was a group set up for the breeding permits with the "leaders" in the hobby, but nat con has turned that down, and sounds like until there is a change in management in Gauteng nat con, nothing will change.
Who manages the records, admin, etc.
Things like this will cost money, and people are generally not keen on paying for things.

 

[Ceratogyrus]

The demand is already there for south Africa's locals, so introducing captive bred spiders at lower prices will decrease the demand. Simple supply and demand economics.

 

[Martin Oosthuysen]

Captive species of any source now cannot just be released as an environmental impact assessment needs to be done also rehabilitation depending on different species as their behavior is different and dnt fear "man". I don't condone to breeding local captive species to " flood "the overseas market as it will only demand a greater supply causing poaching on a larger scale due to the fact they are native to our country. I'm gonna give you another example : let's say u release an exotic species with the market flooded and there is no money or revenue for that species what people then do is just release into a foreign habitat not suitable for them, but because tarantulas have the ability to adapt fast it can have a massive impact. All over the world you will get exotics and all what needs to be done is numbers to be watched and monitored that's what it boils down too so we can have the " full" picture of who has what. Yes hybrids are also a concern if released into the " wild" as they are not studied and are not supposed to exist , but because if "mans" ignorance and stupidity these things happen and conservation have to deal with the issue at the end if the day.

Summary
- impact studies need to be done before any captive species is even considered for release
- breeding local specimens,will only increase the need and want for more.
- over breeding and putting a specimen into a saturated market,will cause more releases occurring of captive specimens which in turn will impact natural habitats
- Hybrids are detrimental to biodiversity

Again,having a governing body no matter which country could actually help monitor these above issues, since like in our own country we have economical constrictions. Manpower is also a huge impact,so this idea will add to the strength of it.

 

[Martin Oosthuysen]

It's been tried and won't work.
In my opinion the egos are too big in the hobby and with previous issues amongst people, getting everyone to agree would be a problem.
There was a group set up for the breeding permits with the "leaders" in the hobby, but nat con has turned that down, and sounds like until there is a change in management in Gauteng nat con, nothing will change.
Who manages the records, admin, etc.
Things like this will cost money, and people are generally not keen on paying for things.

Summary
- ego steps in the way of such a possibility
- old arguments or disagreements would impact on chances of working together
- Natcon has turned such ideas down
- logistics is a huge problem

Okay,I agree personal issues would be a huge thing to overcome. I feel as a group, this could only better the hobby, we should stand together. If someone doesn't want in,its their loss in my opinion. If I was standing on the outside looking in,I'd realize soon enough I would want to be part of it. As for logistics,that's a problem with any endeavor but we are all people who have some sort of expertise in different fields. When it comes to disagreements, I believe that should be handled in a fashion where its apart from this possible idea. Natcon might take us more serious if we start getting better organized as a whole,not just a few.

 

[Martin Oosthuysen]

The demand is already there for south Africa's locals, so introducing captive bred spiders at lower prices will decrease the demand. Simple supply and demand economics.

Summary
- adding more will lower prices lower demand lowers

So upping supply,could down demand. Would this then be controlled by a quota system ?

 

[entomology]

Yes you have put it perfectly !! For any species to be released back to it's original habitat/ country one must ascertain why they became threatened and what will prevent it from reoccurring again? Poaching is the biggest culprit as the demand for rare tarantulas are high!!! Take our Rhino situation in South Africa for an example!! Do u think if we breed them and release back into parks it will stop poaching or increase it for the demand is higher??

Ray
Nature Conservator

 

[Ceratogyrus]

Nat con is not going to change their views anytime soon unfortunately. Sounds like we would need a new government first. Because it was a proposed change in legislation, a minister would have to sign it, and sounds like they want nothing to do with that.
We had our best shot when we had a guy from nat con working with a few hobbyists and people who have been successful against nat con in the past with snakes.
Unfortunately that fell flat and the nat con guy no longer works there.
They just don't have a good enough reason to approve it.