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Advice/help - mystery white stuff around spinerettes

L_B

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Hi everyone.

I'm new here and have come seeking help and advice from other tarantula keepers.

I have a Mexican Red Knee called Eclipse. She is approximately 17 years old and I have had her since she was small enough to fit on my fingernail, so she's grown and matured in my care. She's always been absolutely fine, no problems shedding, eats well, tolerates handling is is a really lovely spider. I'm extremely fond of her.

The last time she shed her skin was around October 2014. A few months ago she started ignoring food, so I thought she's probably coming up to a skin shed and didn't worry about it at all. I know she can sometimes stop eating for a couple of months prior to the shed so I wasn't concerned, and just made sure the humidity was good. Then about a month ago I looked into her enclosure and between her spinerettes was white stuff. It had the consistency of her usual faeces, but was around where her anus is (assuming it is actually at the base where the spinerettes are?!). I got a wet cotton bud and removed it, but although I'd moved a lump, there were white marks left around the bass of the spinerettes. I was worried that perhaps she was constipated and couldn't understand how insect eating creatures could get constipated. After a few days of this not clearing up, I took her to my vet for his opinion. Some of the while stuff was on one of the spinerettes and looked like limescale in a kettle. He took some of it off and looked under a microscope. No parasites at all present in that sample. We sent a sample to a lab and there was nothing unusual about it, I think the lab report said there was just chitin and a couple of long bacteria, which could be normal. We didn't have enough sample left to try to grow the bacteria to see what they were, so the vet said to clean the area every couple of days with an anti-bacterial wash (F10), which I have been doing. The area around the back of her abdomen and spinerettes is quite bald now - sometimes she scratches it lots after I have cleaned it.

This week, although the white has mostly gone, she just seems lethargic. She has been slower than usual for a month now anyway, but no normal signs of a shed being imminent; no web bed, so silk spinning. She is spending more time than usual up on her rock rather than on the bottom. The only thing that has changed over the past few months is I cleaned her enclosure, but put it all back the same way she's always had it. I used a different brand of vermiculite, and had wondered if she was reacting to that, but it doesn't really make sense.

I've just had her out to bathe her rear end. I'm making sure I have her sitting with her mouth to water just in case she has forgotten to drink, but other than doing these things, I feel so helpless. The vet is at a loss and is trying to consult some other people who specialise more with arachnids for me. So I thought I would post here to find out if anyone else has experienced anything similar and has any ideas?

I have some pictures - though annoyingly I don't have one showing when there was more white on her rear end. The vet has these.

Here is a picture from a couple of weeks ago showing just her rear. Can you see the white around the base of the spinerettes? It's less that it was - sometimes when I clean it, it looks like a powdery texture. Hard to see in this though.



Here is a picture I've just taken. If you can see right in the crevices of the base there is still a little bit of white I can't quite get to.



Another angle.



Her general size/condition.



Just to add that tonight it seems as if she's not in control of her spinerettes as I can manipulate them and she doesn't react with them, and her pedipals seem a little limp. She can walk around though and gets her hooks into things without a problem, so she's not completely weak, just not right. I've also been feeling her abdomen and it's quite palpable - I can press a little on it and it's as if it's a case and doesn't feel solid. I've not done this before so maybe it's always like that, but it's worrying me and doesn't seem right.

Can anyone offer any advice here? I feel really helpless and want to do all I can for her. Perhaps it is just a shed after all and she's taking ages where she is older?!
 
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Enn49

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Firstly welcome to the forum.

Could the white dust be from the vermiculite? I used to breed snakes and used vermiculite in the incubator, the hatchling snakes would get coated in the stuff as they hatched so I've never used it for Ts.
 

L_B

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Thanks for the reply.

I don't think it's that, she's always been on moist vermiculite and I don't think it would have coated her spinnerette in the way it did. Plus when the first white lump was noticed, it was very much like the white faeces. Unless it was faeces that somehow stuck there, and the white powdery stuff is from the powdery parts of the vermiculite, so two things happening. She used to be on a coarser vermiculite, and when I cleaned the enclosure a few months ago I had to use fine because there was no coarse available. I sometimes mix it wither other substrates and moss. I might do that again and see if it makes a difference. I don't think it is that though, I think it would have been picked up in the lab test.

Can they leak urates (if it is urates?) form their behinds if there is a problem?
 

Enn49

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I suggest trying her on dry coco fibre if you're going to try another substrate and see if that helps her.
 

L_B

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Thank you - I think I have some left from when I have previously used it mixed with a coarse vermiculite. I'll see if it makes any difference to rule it out 100%.
 

kormath

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you said she's 17+ years old. That's close to max age from what i've been reading for the B. smithi, give or take. Hopefully my little 1/2" smithi sling turns out to be a female so i can enjoy mine as long as you have :)

I'm wondering if it's one of the quirks of old age? Do they make Depends for smithi's? :p
 

Telson

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I wouldn't rule out premolt. With something like this, all you can really do is wait and see. Beautiful spider, by the way. Just do as you're doing, is my advice. I would also switch her to dry coco fiber, as Enn said, with maybe a small damp corner. I've noticed that you can trigger a molt by rehousing them. Not sure if the slight stress does it, or what, but it's happened too many times with several of mine to be coincidence, in my opinion. Then again, if she IS sick, it could be putting her through unnecessary stress for no reason. Just thinking out loud...but in one pic her abdomen looks very black..looks like premolt to me.
 

L_B

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Hi Kormath.

Is that your little one in your avatar? So cute! Eclipse was that size when i got her too. :)

I've read that females can live until mid 20s and poss 30s. Perhaps I've read incorrect info but I had in my head that she's still got another 10 years to go. Optimism possibly?

Hi Telson. I am really hoping it's a premolt. The black patch at the back reassures me this might be the case, it just feels like she's been like this for so long, much longer than usual, so perhaps I am over-thinking it and perhaps the mystery white stuff around the spinerettes is unrelated and nothing to worry about (faeces that was stuck, perhaps).

If she is in pre-molt I hope that picking her up and bathing her behind hasn't done any damage, I usually leave her alone before a molt, and she'd usually not tolerate handling at that time, whereas she's quite lethargic now. I'm worried about the lack of making a web bed though if it is a molt. Can they get stuck in their own skins for any reason? I think I will leave her in peace for a week or so, even if she doesn't move and see what happens. I don't know what more I can do.
 

Phil

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Hi Kormath.

Is that your little one in your avatar? So cute! Eclipse was that size when i got her too. :)

I've read that females can live until mid 20s and poss 30s. Perhaps I've read incorrect info but I had in my head that she's still got another 10 years to go. Optimism possibly?

Hi Telson. I am really hoping it's a premolt. The black patch at the back reassures me this might be the case, it just feels like she's been like this for so long, much longer than usual, so perhaps I am over-thinking it and perhaps the mystery white stuff around the spinerettes is unrelated and nothing to worry about (faeces that was stuck, perhaps).

If she is in pre-molt I hope that picking her up and bathing her behind hasn't done any damage, I usually leave her alone before a molt, and she'd usually not tolerate handling at that time, whereas she's quite lethargic now. I'm worried about the lack of making a web bed though if it is a molt. Can they get stuck in their own skins for any reason? I think I will leave her in peace for a week or so, even if she doesn't move and see what happens. I don't know what more I can do.
Hi and welcome to the forum. I agree with Enn and also Telson, the pics do look as though dark hairs under the skin so that is usually a sure fire way of predicting pre moult, especially with smithis who can flick hair for fun. Mine does all the time. Hope she is settling now on new substrate. She is lovely and 17 years is a very good age. You must love her very much ☺
 

kormath

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Hi Kormath.

Is that your little one in your avatar? So cute! Eclipse was that size when i got her too. :)

I've read that females can live until mid 20s and poss 30s. Perhaps I've read incorrect info but I had in my head that she's still got another 10 years to go. Optimism possibly?
Most i've read agree with 20ish for females, some say up to 30 or 40 but only a couple so i go with 15-20 to be safe, and then possibly suprised if they last longer :)

The avatar is my son's little G. rosea. She wanted to go for a walkabout a few weeks back during maintenance time. My smithi is about the same size, just started showing the stripes on his legs this last molt. I think there's a pic of him in the molt thread or my pic thread of that. If not i'll try and remember (but i have been horrible about this) to get a pic.
 

Thistles

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Hey, @L_B, sorry to hear that your baby has this issue. I can't tell from the photos, but it is possible that she has some sort of fungal or bacterial infection. They can leak white fecal matter (not sure if they're urates or not) from the anus, but that isn't what the pictures looked like to me. I would recommend swabbing the area with either saline or gentian violet dye. Both are gentle on the animal and both will help regardless of whether the problem is fungal or bacterial. Maybe just swab a little salt water on it every day and see how things go.
 

kormath

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Hey, @L_B, sorry to hear that your baby has this issue. I can't tell from the photos, but it is possible that she has some sort of fungal or bacterial infection. They can leak white fecal matter (not sure if they're urates or not) from the anus, but that isn't what the pictures looked like to me. I would recommend swabbing the area with either saline or gentian violet dye. Both are gentle on the animal and both will help regardless of whether the problem is fungal or bacterial. Maybe just swab a little salt water on it every day and see how things go.
Saline? That's a pesticide for spiders, I figured it'd be bad for tarantulas also.
 

Thistles

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Saline? That's a pesticide for spiders, I figured it'd be bad for tarantulas also.
Salt is a desiccant. Too much would dry her (or anything) out, but swabbing some on her won't hurt her. People have completely submerged tarantulas in saline as a treatment in the past and were successful. I wouldn't do it for fun, but it can be an effective treatment.
 

L_B

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Hi Thistles.

We've already ruled out the possibility of fungus from the lab test we did on the sample.

Update is that there is still no sign of a moult. She's been sitting really still for a few days and has move only a little. I have decided to leave her alone and see if she moults, but couldn't resist checking her yesterday to make sure she was actually still alive. She is, just still lethargic. I hope if she is going to shed, that she can actually shed and doesn't struggle where she is older. The humidity is good, I just hope she doesn't somehow end up stuck inside. Am hoping for a huge feeling of relief one day looking in and seeing a successful shed.
 

Thistles

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Hi Thistles.

We've already ruled out the possibility of fungus from the lab test we did on the sample.

Update is that there is still no sign of a moult. She's been sitting really still for a few days and has move only a little. I have decided to leave her alone and see if she moults, but couldn't resist checking her yesterday to make sure she was actually still alive. She is, just still lethargic. I hope if she is going to shed, that she can actually shed and doesn't struggle where she is older. The humidity is good, I just hope she doesn't somehow end up stuck inside. Am hoping for a huge feeling of relief one day looking in and seeing a successful shed.
Ah, ok, and I see the vet gave you a wash for it. Best of luck to you both.
 

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